Health Care Vigil in Thousand Oaks: Provocation to violent response

by Karoli on September 3, 2009 · 459 comments

Yes, I was at the health care vigil tonight in Thousand Oaks. Yes, I saw what happened, though it was from across a very large street. I can’t tell you who said what to who, but I will tell you what the mood was, what I saw, who instigated things, and what I photographed.

What I won’t do: I won’t publish the pictures I took of the confrontation. I didn’t capture anything other than the people in various states of verbal confrontation, and I have turned those over to the police. Because they are investigating, I won’t compromise it by publishing those pictures unless and until they give me permission. I will, however, publish my other photos which will include some taken before this incident occurred.

There were around 150 supporters of health care reform present on the northeast corner of Lynn Road and Hillcrest in Thousand Oaks. I was one of them. To get to that corner, we had to park in the Oaks Mall parking lot, walk to the light, cross a small thruway and then cross Hillcrest, which is a very large street.[photo here looking across to those opposed, posted in real time before the incident].

In order to get from the parking lot to the vigil, we were required to walk through the group of people opposed to health care reform. As you can see in the photo, they were originally staged right before the crosswalk to the thruway, so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.

The mood on our side of the street was passionate, happy, and dedicated. There were no violent words spoken. For the most part, we were supported loudly by passers-by, who honked their horns and waved their support. When someone passed by who disagreed, we actually had conversations with them while they waited for the light.

To be clear here: There were no threats, no dark moods, and there was no mob. I repeat, there was no mob. We were peaceful people holding candles and signs.

One petite woman was also handing out single payer flyers. She was passionate about it, but not rude, not mean, always smiled, and simply offered the flyer. At some point, she crossed back over (she may have run out of her flyer supply. I don’t know for sure. But she was not in any way confrontational.)

All of a sudden, I saw a very tall man in an orange shirt (yes, he is in the photo I linked you to) confront her, verbally at first. Her back was to the thruway, and he was shooing her, approaching her, speaking to her in a very aggressive fashion (observation from body language only) and waving his arms in a shooing motion. With each step she took back, he took one forward, shooing her more. From where I was, it appeared as though he were telling her to get on her own side of the street, and backing it up with a very clear physical threat. Even from where I stood, it chilled me. I pointed it out to others and called out for anyone with a video camera to aim it over there. (I had a small Nikon cam with me that does video, but it would have been useless in that light.)

Ultimately, she did cross the street and come back over to our side.

Several minutes later, there was another altercation. My best recollection is that this man saw what happened to the woman and reacted to it. I cannot say with certainty where he was when he saw it — he may have arrived and was navigating his way through that group, or he may have crossed the street to defend her. He was confronted by the same man. I could tell from where I was that the man was belligerent, angry, and confrontational.

The man in the orange shirt hit the pro-reform guy (I’m going to call him PR Guy just to keep the players straight). Hard. (tweeted in real time) He punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and into that thruway. As you can see from the photo, cars drive straight through that without stopping. The pro-reform guy could have been run over. He got up, tried to get back up on the curb, but Orange Shirt guy was in his face. Finger in his face, PR Guy standing, steps up to the curb, and there’s a scuffle. Orange shirt seemed to have PR Guy in a hold, but again, I was across the street, so won’t state that as absolute fact. Next thing I see is PR Guy’s hat being tossed into the street, both yelling at one another, then Orange shirt walks away, PR Guy picks up hat and crosses to our side.

When he gets to our side, he tells a story in one sentence: “He punched me hard, straight in the face, so I bit his finger off.”

Honestly, I thought he was exaggerating. I guess he wasn’t.

I’ve given this report to the police along with my photos. I am not heralding anyone as a hero here. I certainly do not celebrate the idea of anyone biting anyone else, no matter what the reason. However, there is no question that Orange Shirt guy was aching to fight, was willing to pick a fight, and certainly didn’t care who he fought with. He chose people who were shorter than he, and he used his voice, his body, his body language and his height to intimidate them.

Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy or worse yet, reports characterizing him as a senior citizen. He was aggressive and ready to mix it up.

I’ll tell you more about the other hour and 15 minutes of peace, wonderful people, and stories in another post. This one is for the benefit of those who might want to hear a different side of what is sure to hit the air as a one-sided story of liberals gone wild. There were no liberals gone wild, nor were there hordes of conservatives behaving badly. There were 9 or 10 people on one corner, 150-200 on the other, and two men who, regardless of their politics, behaved quite badly.

Update: LA Times has it a bit wrong. So does KTLA.

Update: KTLA and LATimes have updated their stories.

{ 435 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Susan Hogarth September 3, 2009 at 3:08 am

Quick, serious question: how would sharing your photographs 'compromise' an investigation? Aren't many eyes better than a few?

2 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:13 am

It could be argued that they should have confiscated my camera on the
scene. They didn't, because I promised them I'd send them the photos.
Had they confiscated it, we wouldn't see those photos (or my camera)
back for a very long time. I figure it's a fair trade.

3 Susan Hogarth September 3, 2009 at 3:17 am

Thanks for the quick reply. It doesn't really answer my question, though, as far as I can tell. I can see why you might want to share with the police (not my choice but that's another discussion), but I don't see how that relates to -not- sharing with other people – people who have, by the way, not threatened to confiscate your camera. Did the police actually say they might do that, or were you just saying they might reasonably have done so?

4 Susan Hogarth September 3, 2009 at 3:19 am

Also, I have to make a quick point here. I think it's good you realize that evidence taken by cops disappears for 'a very long time', even in cases (such as digital images) where such confiscation really only need be very brief (assuming, of course, that you grant it be 'needed' at all, but as I said – different discussion).

5 Ralf White September 3, 2009 at 6:50 am

I sincerly wish trhe news reports retold the story with the same responsibility you do, Karoli. As a conservative, I'm here to tell you that you're a great American.

May we all find our way through these times with wisdom and a lot less anger.

6 biker02 September 3, 2009 at 7:12 am


7 Ravan Asteris September 3, 2009 at 7:33 am

Wow! You weren't there, so how the hell do you get off with your remark?

8 Ravan Asteris September 3, 2009 at 7:35 am

A big, belligerent guy pushes people around, punches a guy, knocking him into traffic, and then whines that he is a senior citizen when he shoves his finger into his victims face and it gets bitten off. What a man… not.

9 DLew September 3, 2009 at 7:49 am


Why did the Pro-Obamacare women with the flyers feel the need to “get cute” and engage the opposite side?

I don't encourage violence anywhere, but I'm sure you'd all agree that the spark that ignited the situation was her need to engage her opposition.

10 John Henry Eden September 3, 2009 at 8:00 am

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood from broken noses and severed fingers.

11 BWHudd September 3, 2009 at 8:03 am

So…PR Guy sees a belligerent person shooing paper flyer woman away and decides to take matters into his own hands. I see more than one person aching for a fight, willing to pick a fight, and certainly not caring who he fought with.
Based on this account, PR Guy and Old Orange Shirt were both wrong. Yet both sides are defending their guys. Anyone defending either of these guys, based on this report, is sick and twisted.

12 Tom_C September 3, 2009 at 8:15 am

Gee, no matter how hard you try to spin it, the moveon guy was crazy, violent, out of control. He went across the street to pick a fight.

Even this account can't cover-up that fact.

13 candor7 September 3, 2009 at 8:17 am

I guess the senior citizen in the Orange shirt didn't hit the idiot hard enough. Permits are issued by municiple authorities. Neither the woman or the cannibal belonged on that side of the street, and they broke the law doing when they crossed their protest line. Usually there are enough police to enforce separation but here there was not.

And i t will be gettinng worse before we get rid of Obama.America does not want a leftist national socialist government.

14 CJinPA September 3, 2009 at 8:20 am

I am a Republican who is opposed to the health care overhaul, and I’ve never read this blog before, but I sense this is an accurate account.

A protester so filled with righteousness they are driven to rage at the sounds of an opposing view. The very concept that a decent person could have an opposing view befuddles them. So they can’t comprehend having the patience for actual discourse, even a heated exchange of words. I’ve seen liberals do it too, on this and other issues. He had to “shoo” the first woman, then found an excuse to relieve his rage on the man.

Thanks for providing perspective: that the vast majority on both sides were civil. Most accounts will gloss over that.

15 Rocks September 3, 2009 at 8:48 am

Actually thanks for this report but I have to ask. “so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.” of “9 or 10 people”? Really? If the orange shirted man was aggressive and belligerent fine but it's a little silly to suggest you can't avoid a small group of people on a street corner.

16 N September 3, 2009 at 8:50 am

Perhaps you should call him the “MT” guy instead… for “Mike Tyson”.

He didn't just 'bite' the guy, he 'BIT HIS FINGER OFF'.

That is an extremely SICK response.

17 jim6058 September 3, 2009 at 8:57 am

Thank you for your valient attempt to be objective. I sincerely mean that.

I am on the Conservative side of this argument and I lament the fact that such loss of control plays into the game of those who would steal your rights. This is NOT about healthcare. It is NOT about insurance coverage. This IS about control. Control that you had and you are surrendering.

18 N September 3, 2009 at 8:58 am

Dear CJinPA
“… I am a Republican”

Drop the pretense. It is not polite to lie.

“… A protester so filled with righteousness they are driven to rage at the sounds of an opposing view…”

The reported facts do not support this view. There is no information regarding if this person was full of 'righteousness'.

“…The very concept that a decent person could have an opposing view befuddles them…”

You are painting in very broad strokes here.

People who bite of fingers in first fights are NOT decent people by the way.

“…So they can’t comprehend having the patience for actual discourse, even a heated exchange of words…”

Enough with the defamation already

“…He had to “shoo” the first woman…”

The woman was on the wrong side of the street. Each group of protesters is supposed to stay on their side of the street. Usually there are police to ensure that the folks stay on the right side. Were they sleeping today?

“…then found an excuse to relieve his rage on the man.”

Um, the person who 'relieved his rage' was the person who did the biting.

19 Texmom September 3, 2009 at 9:01 am

I am against the current health care plan, but want the true story on these events, which is hard to get. Good for you in trying to tell the story honestly. Why can't the media be more like you?

20 N September 3, 2009 at 9:06 am

Geez, I finally looked at your picture. There are ONLY NINE PEOPLE in that group.

You are trying to say that you could not reasonably WALK AROUND a group that small ?!?

That is absurd… Completely, totally, absolutely absurd!!!

21 willieu September 3, 2009 at 9:07 am

“…or he may have crossed the street to defend her..”

- that will be a HUGE factor in preeminent lawsuit.Wwe'll have to wait for the real facts to come out. I suppose the “biter” will be found at fault.

(good thing 'Orange Short' guy didn't have to wait in line for medical attention, he would have lost his pinkie).

22 tryingtobeobjective September 3, 2009 at 9:08 am

Have to agree with DLew's post below. What was the point in anyone crossing over what looks like a 6-lane road just to antagonize the other side? If 'those opposed' had been left alone on their side of the road rather than being f*****d with, none of this would've happened.

I am skeptical of your biased account, and I hope the police have the sense to be as well. If “Orange Shirt” was really 'aching to fight' he'd have come over to your side of the road. But if was the psycho finger biter who did that, not the old man.

Liberals suck. And bite.

23 Charley September 3, 2009 at 9:10 am

There is no excuse for assault on someone. This is especially true when someone is assaulted over their political stance. That goes for all sides of any debate. If old-nine-digits hit this man first, then what ever happened to him next is okay by me. When I was growing up we called that a life lesson.

All that said, one sure way to put someone in a pro-free-health-care frame of mind is to put them in need of it. ;)

24 Concerned Citizen September 3, 2009 at 9:17 am

Your interpretation is fascinating. I wonder why the innocent finger biter ran away and fled the scene. Grant Markus, a well known democrat, attacked a physician several weeks ago at a very peaceful impromptu discussion at the T.O. Library. That crime was witnessed by an undercover police officer so there will be no interpretations by people like you claiming things that maybe you shouldn't. That police officer was also assaulted by Grant Markus and he will be going to jail for battery, resisting arrest and probably other charges too.

At any rate there is no excuses for becoming physical or violent. “no question that Orange Shirt guy was aching to fight, was willing to pick a fight, and certainly didn’t care who he fought with”. Regardless of your opinion this does not justify taking off a finger or violence of any sort.

This is an important issue that should be decided methodically and with bipartisan involvement. The faster they try to rush it through the more anxious it makes me. Obama himself remarked that surgeons make $40,000 to remove a foot. The published and easily verifiable amount is in fact $1000. Is he that misinformed or is he deliberately trying to pit patients against providers. Either way does not look good for Mr. Obama

25 Charley September 3, 2009 at 9:22 am


I think you meant fist fight, not first fight.

The Marquis of Queensbury rules went out of style in roughly 1910. If someone is under assault in this day and age you can only assume that your life is at stake and take whatever measures are necessary to effectively defend yourself.

Anything less then that can and will get the one being assaulted killed.

26 uknowbetter September 3, 2009 at 10:05 am

Whoever started the physical violence was the aggressor, whether it was a push or a punch.

27 CJinPA September 3, 2009 at 10:10 am

“Drop the pretense. It is not polite to lie.”

Ha. Don't challenge my bonafides, Sparky. I don't lie about party affiliation, especially in an anonymous web posting. I've been to lots of demonstrations, as a conservative. I stood in the middle of a pack of angry young liberals at the 2000 GOP convention in Philadelphia. When I read about a guy “shooing” away a little lady because her words are just too much to take, I see the same liberal punks who wouldn't let me talk.

As I read it, the little lady didn't go over to “the wrong side of the street” to start a fight, but to get more fliers. Maybe I am too trusting of this account. If so, my mistake. Maybe she was picking a fight – of words. The big guy should have responded with the same.

“Um, the person who 'relieved his rage' was the person who did the biting.”

Er, I think the guy who responded to words by throwing a punch was the first to lose control. In fact, I'm sure of it. I could “flatten” a supporter of Obamacare with my words….the fact that the president, advocates and members of Congress have admitted that the Orwellian sounding “public option” is merely a necessary step to achieve government health care… the fact that the “46 million uninsured Americans” is more honestly around 8 million…the fact that nearly 90 percent of voters have health insurance and 70 percent think it's a good value….See? They'd collapse under the sheer weight of the facts. There’s no need intimidate little ladies and sucker punch people who disagree if you know what you’re talking about.

28 Mike September 3, 2009 at 10:11 am

That old man got what he deserved. No longer will we sit back and allow the violent and the ignorant shape policy in this country. The country wanted CHANGE, and it's CHANGE we deserve.

29 cajuncocoa September 3, 2009 at 10:25 am

Again, partisanship dictates what is and what is not acceptable behavior. Would any of you be so quick to make excuses for the biter if he had been among the opponents of Obamacare? I think not (and neither would I).

30 usmadness September 3, 2009 at 10:29 am

Type your comment here. I cannot believe anyone HAD to walk through that HUGE group of anti-government healthcare protestors.

31 cajuncocoa September 3, 2009 at 10:36 am

LOL, that's not how it works. This is America. Just because someone DISAGREES with you doesn't make them “ignorant”. Open your mind and listen to a different point of view.

Neither side should sit back and allow violence, of course. That said, from that far away, the author of this story was not in a position to know what was said in the confrontation, so we don't know whether the Obamacare supporter engaged in verbal assault toward the opponents. That may explain why the biting-victim was shooing away people who came over from the Obamacare group. In any case, I believe both the biter (for biting) and the bitee (for punching) should be arrested.

32 bozak September 3, 2009 at 10:46 am

So the finger biter leaves the scene of the crime.
And none of the 150 pro healthcare supporters didn't tell the police the name of the finger biter.
No surprise.
“Orange shirt seemed to have PR Guy in a hold, but again, I was across the street, so won’t state that as absolute fact.”
So you have no clue what went on across the street. So everything you wrote about the incident is secondhand from the person that left the scene of a crime. Why should anyone take you serious?

33 jixtreme September 3, 2009 at 10:54 am

All hail change! Let's punch people and bite fingers off until everyone agrees with us!

THAT is hope and change; Change I can believe in!

34 usmadness September 3, 2009 at 10:59 am

I suppose it's alright for a woman to shoot a guy in the back after he has finished beating her up in public? Oh, no, wait… that would involve you! Not good.

35 biker02 September 3, 2009 at 11:00 am


36 usmadness September 3, 2009 at 11:09 am

It certainly speaks to the biased elements of the “objective” retelling of events.

37 Anonymous September 3, 2009 at 11:10 am

Funny…when regular Americans just started showing up to voice their opposition to this agenda, there was no violence. Now that “Dear Leader” has summoned his robots to show up…and there's plenty of videotape of the astroturfing that's going on…there is violence. Don't pretend it's on both sides — IT IS NOT! That 65-year-old has the most to lose in this situation…stay on your damned side of the street…and your side of the country too!

38 bcage September 3, 2009 at 11:17 am

Ok; man in the group of “peaceful people holding signs and candles” felt the band of 9 [too wide to walk around] treated “always smiling … not rude, not mean” flyer lady inappropriately by apparently “shooing her with his hands”. So, he walks from band of 150 to confront orange shirt. A scuffle ensues and the man bites off finger of orange shirt man. man returns to peaceful group of people holding signs and candles and announces he “was hit hard in the face so he bit his finger off.” During this, you asked people to record the confrontation with their video cameras and decided the lighting was not good enough to record it yourself, but, instead, used [it seems] the same camera to shoot still photos that apparently have enough light.

Some questions quickly come to mind – did anyone take you up on the request to video the confrontation? Maybe they did film it and were simply afraid that the time to get it back from the police would be far too great to submit it for review.

Did sweet flyer lady actually go to her car? You indicate that “maybe she ran out of flyers” and then that she ultimately returned to her side of the street. Could it be that smiling flyer lady went across the street to “discuss” her view points?

What reaction did the group give to biter man when he came across the street [maybe blood trickling down his chin] to announce his “solution” to the problem at hand? I would assume that if he was going back to his car to leave after the bite, then he would have had no reason to come back across the street since parking was apparently behind the band of 9 so it “appears” that he came across to relate his adventures to the peaceful group holding signs and candles.

Last question; you are joking aren't you?

39 sanfordj September 3, 2009 at 11:27 am

That is so typical of right-wing wackos — provoking peaceful protesters and attacking them. The PR guy clearly was just defending himself.
The right-wingers are losing the battle on health care, so they have to resort to violence. They might as well accept the fact that it's high time they started making some sacrifices to help the less fortunate in society. It's unthinkable that anyone in America would be denied the right to visit a doctor.
Of course, all the corporate-owned media will make the ruffian in the orange shirt look like an innocent elderly person. Thank you for telling us the truth about these ogres.

40 usmadness September 3, 2009 at 11:35 am

Ooh! You need to speak on behalf of the party store owner from Michigan who is being sued by the thief he shot in the leg as the thief was leaving his store with knife and goods in hand. I'm sure your sophistry would be well received by the courts and very helpful to the party store owner's defense.

41 rossanderson September 3, 2009 at 11:39 am

You are a liar
IO heard the incident from the man that took the elderly gentlemans finger to him at the hospital. One of your goons passed by younger men to confront the senior and was in his face to less than 3 feet. The elder was the first to push the goon away……….then the scumbag bit the elders finger off. It was gathered up by the witness, taken to the local hospital where maybe it can be reattached. The goon was not to be found.

Your a liar

42 tonyjenson September 3, 2009 at 11:44 am

Demonstraters are not allowed to block through-fares like corners and crosswalks.

It happens all the time with union protests and they like the group of 9, are at fault. By blocking the woman's passing, a case could be made that Orange Shirt was “coersing” the woman. Frankly at that point, the police should have been called.

It is not society's responsibilty to alter their free right of passage to accomodate a gang of 9 or even 1.

43 Jack Sprat September 3, 2009 at 11:55 am

“Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy”
So what in your mind could possibly justify biting the finger off of anyone?
Apparently your 150-200 “passionate” 'bamanauts couldn't handle 9 or 10 anti-socialists, just how old was the pathetic biter? and can you not solve differences without loosing physical control? Oddly those who were on the other side of the street said the 'bama-biter came across the street “aggressive and ready to mix it up”. So apparently he was “passionate” and the 65 year old was aggressive, again just who bit off the finger of whom?

44 usmadness September 3, 2009 at 11:55 am

Spending a little too much time listening to Shawn Hannity?

45 Charley September 3, 2009 at 11:56 am

It appears we uncovered a very cost effective way to amputate a finger…

46 AlexS September 3, 2009 at 12:16 pm

I will withold judgement until both sides of the story are heard. I have been searching the web and have yet to find any witness accounts from the side of the street where the biting took place. All of the stories I have read are branding the victim of the crime as the aggressor and I am assuming it is because of this blog because it is the only reference in those stories. is very well funded and organized so a I am absolutley sure that someone at that vigil knows exactly who the biter is. If MoveOn is truly peaceful and law abiding they will alert the authorities of the biter's identity so that he can be arrested and questioned. Let our legal system take its course.

47 Jack Sprat September 3, 2009 at 12:20 pm

“If old-nine-digits hit this man “
That is the big question isn't it since the “viewer”, hardly unbiased, couldn't tell from across the street and those that were in a position to see said the belligerent one was the guy than went all the way across the street. Animals bite, children bite, Mike Tyson bites, sane humans do not. While the animal who did this did perform, what would become typical under socialist health care, the only solution for “treatment” would take too long to do anyone any good. Hope you’re in good health and your last name isn’t Bobbett.

48 Charley September 3, 2009 at 12:24 pm

Now that's just ignorance. Shooting someone on the way out of the store is a little over the line. However, in some states as long as the bad guy still had the knife in his possession when the trigger was pulled, it would be a legal shoot. I think those states are growing bored with fruitless pursuit of armed robbers after the fact and allowing shop keepers more leniency.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The difference between someone walking away and someone in the process of beating another is clearly different.

It is kind of like the unwritten rule in my house. If I am home alone and someone breaks in, they might get a chance to surrender even though in my state it is legal to shoot an intruder in my home. If someone should have the bad judgment to break into my home while any of my family is present, that is a capital offense.

Life is full of choices. The choice to break into my home. The choice to commit assault on a stranger. The choice to remain civil and debate with words rather then fists. All those choices bring rewards or consequences.

That is a lesson that most children used to have down by the first or second grade. At least that was the way it was when I was growing up.

49 bozak September 3, 2009 at 12:40 pm

Excellent point.
Until Obama called out the union thugs and other Obama supporters there was not a single reported incident of violence.
Now violence is happening even in thousand oaks.
Obama said CHANGE, I don't think this was the CHANGE any voter anticipated.

50 lafe September 3, 2009 at 12:41 pm

If someone punched me in the face they wouldn't be simply walking to the hospital, they would be going in on a stretcher. Orange shirt guy got what he deserved.

51 disgustedbyyourblog September 3, 2009 at 12:43 pm

Your account from across the stree is pure speculation. You should listen to “Scott's” account. The gentleman who delivered the senior's finger to him at the hospital to be re-attached. If your side is so compassionate, why don't you identify the biter so that he can be brought in and prosecuted properly.

Those supporting Obama Care are “Biting Off The Hands (Finger) That Feed Them”. Your blog is so corny, I had to laugh. I especially like your picture of the radical Right Wing Big Scary Mob. How pathetic. They look like ordinary Thousand Oaks Residents who were out to stand up against your Obama Backed Move On . Org.

52 disgustedbyyourblog September 3, 2009 at 12:43 pm

Your account from across the stree is pure speculation. You should listen to “Scott's” account. The gentleman who delivered the senior's finger to him at the hospital to be re-attached. If your side is so compassionate, why don't you identify the biter so that he can be brought in and prosecuted properly.

Those supporting Obama Care are “Biting Off The Hands (Finger) That Feed Them”. Your blog is so corny, I had to laugh. I especially like your picture of the radical Right Wing Big Scary Mob. How pathetic. They look like ordinary Thousand Oaks Residents who were out to stand up against your Obama Backed Move On . Org.

53 Mark September 3, 2009 at 12:49 pm

Your account may work for your crowd but reality will, perhaps, look quite a lot different.
I've met many a progressive in my life and they have a sense about them, of superior intelligence. I believe the more-on peaceniks were looking to cause trouble and I'll wager you the cretin who got punched in the face will show no bruising.

The moron who bit the seniors finger off fights like a child, mean, nasty and below the belt. A “man” would not bite.

The writer here is biased, a given. I'm only reading between the lines and I may be wrong on some, but not, I expect, on all.

I seek discussion with the left oftentimes and usually get nothing approaching a willingness to honestly compare ideas and what I receive in return is, generally speaking poorly formed Utopian dream-like arguments unsupported by logic or example.

I am looking forward to the police report.

54 disgustedbyyourblog September 3, 2009 at 12:51 pm

Sandfordj. You comment that the orange shirt guy was the aggressor and your guy was obviously defending himself make no sense, since it was your guy who crossed the street and provoked the altercation. Also, an eye witness at the scene reported that your guy threw the first punch.
How pathetic your side is.

55 markinboston September 3, 2009 at 12:54 pm

Thanks so much for your personal report. I saw the KTLA report late last night and the ANTI-reform guys were reportedly the bad guys, not so per your report.

This is very unfortunate, we should not give the bad guys a chance to paint us as dangerous and violent – although… it might make them hesitate to be such jerks…

now – if we could only bite the fingers off all the scumbag lobbyists…

56 Name September 3, 2009 at 12:56 pm

Has it EVER crossed anyone's mind to BITE a part of another human being's body OFF just because they were angry. I'll bet no, because we are supposed to be humans, not ANIMALS. I'm amused at your feeble attempt to make it the victim's “fault.” These meetings were fairly peaceful until Obama called out his Chicago thugs and unleashed them on everyday Americans who don't want to live in a Communist country run by “Obama. The Annointed One.”

57 just saying September 3, 2009 at 1:03 pm

“So what in your mind could possibly justify biting the finger off of anyone?”

Getting punched in the face and being physically threatened. It's called self-defense. He who throws the first punch gets all the blame. Golden rule applies.

58 thecentrist September 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm

“In order to get from the parking lot to the vigil, we were required to walk through the group of people opposed to health care reform. As you can see in the photo, they were originally staged right before the crosswalk to the thruway, so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.”

There are less than a dozen people in that picture. Why would a group of such thoughtful, sensible, intellectual people pick a spot to voice their opinion on such a polarizing issue with only one point of access?

It's hard to imagine somebody being a part of such a peaceful, innocent group of people with candles being morally bankrupt enough to bite off somebody else's finger. It's hilarious that you try to cast the situation as such.

Your grossly slanted point of view aside, both men should be arrested. Trying to justify or even partially excuse either one for this is just ridiculous.

59 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm

I will withhold judgement until the real facts are published but it sure looks like the moveon guy came the distance to make trouble. I suspect that when the guy is identified that he will be one of the SEIU goons that have had lots of other hands on incidents that have gone under the radar. It is just a guess but we will be looking for the truth.

And to the guy that wants to bite off the fingers of lobbyists. Would you want to consider members of the Apollo project and the SEIU in that same group?

60 shep September 3, 2009 at 11:29 am

“Um, the person who ‘relieved his rage’ was the person who did the biting.”

Biting off a finger does sound more about rage than self-defense but, nevertheless, if the older guy struck first he was lucky he didn’t get much, much worse – and it would have completely, legally justified.

61 pushingyourluck September 3, 2009 at 1:42 pm

I may be a pro-reform liberal and I go to healthcare debates……If you stand and yell in my face , I'll stand in yours and yell…… If you poke and prod me, I'll respond tenfold, So that being said “push me” and see what happens next, you will not like the result.

Healthcare should have been fixed 20 years ago ….. Nows the time , stand up America to these bullies and help all America get healthcare not just the rightious few……Medical care for all Ameicans paid for by Americans is the Good Samaritan thing to do and the right thing.

62 gladness September 3, 2009 at 1:43 pm

It is so strange that this is all about Healthcare Reform… wars, torture, wiretapping, 9-11, terrorism, global warming, bank fraud, recession/depression… and we are going into a civil war because of … healthcare reform? Seriously, what is the deeper root of this madness?

63 epiphannyy September 3, 2009 at 1:59 pm

You need to contact Politics Daily and have them correct their “version” of the story. Here is what THEY are saying, while linking to your blog and the KTLA and LA Times stories….

“A 65-year-old man demonstrating in support of health care reform at a rally near Los Angeles had his finger bitten off after a violent confrontation with a reform opponent Wednesday night. According to one bystander's account, the reform supporter, part of a group of 100 or so demonstrators, had aggressively threatened a small group of anti-Obama protesters who were “peaceful people holding up candles and signs.” (Police reports concur that the Obama supporter moved across the street into the group of protesters.) He landed a heavy blow to the face of one protester, who responded by chomping off his pinky.”

Whose version is right? Politics Daily's version, or everyone else's??

64 Name2 September 3, 2009 at 2:00 pm

I thought the author condemned both of them…hmm maybe that was just the 'liberal' reading. But, have you EVER punched someone in the face because you disagreed with their politics?

65 lijohy September 3, 2009 at 2:08 pm

Why does it matter? People have right to engage in debate, no one has the right to physically confront someone. And what do you mean by “getting cute”? Would you still say that if the Pro-Health care supporter was a man?

66 mp September 3, 2009 at 2:20 pm

both of your folks should have stayed on your side of the street.
Also, biting a finger off in not an appropriate response.

67 larky61 September 3, 2009 at 2:37 pm

Don't you mean white-nessed it? You ignorant bastard, racist, sexist “biker”.

68 dejava September 3, 2009 at 2:46 pm

how much $ for sewing the finger back on.. How'd it get in little guy's mouth? Who pays? (the doctors? the heath insurance coalition?)

69 mb September 3, 2009 at 2:46 pm

Humans are animals. You should have completed your secondary education–you might have even learned what communism is, and thus wouldn't carelessly drop it into each of your partisan rants. Humans engage in biting during altercations with some frequency. Preferably the altercations that lead to such desperate means of competing wouldn't occur, which in this case would have required the 'victim' to keep his hands to himself. Keep that in mind before you go around with such a partisan narrative: the dipshit punched a guy in the face over a disagreement. That sort of antisocial behavior isn't acceptable either, and things wouldn't have escalated if he had actually been peaceful. Finally, drop the “Chicago thug” nonsense. You are shitting on an entire U.S. city and its inhabitants for petty partisan politics. Grow up. There will be many more administrations, some of which you will favor and some of which you will not, but if you savage the country in your haste to make opposition you've only succeeded in making an enemy of your own countrymen.

70 Daniel September 3, 2009 at 2:46 pm

A lot of people are linking this story as an eyewitness account, but from your version of events, it's not very clear what happened. And your tweet makes it seems like there are troublemakers ruining it for you, but your account makes it seem like it's one guy being aggressive.

I'm sorry but this account isn't really worthwhile, neither is that redcounty guy that others are responding with. I can't wait for the LAPD to wrap this thing up so we can find out who these two guys really are.

71 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 2:47 pm

I don't know why she went to the other side of the street. But she
wasn't threatening, or violent, or even speaking. I didn't see her
trying to give anyone there a flyer. Maybe she tried. I don't know.

72 Charley September 3, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Yes it is. Rice is on Fox News right now. He freely admits that he swung first, and he swung twice. Face facts, if someone swings at someone else, all rules of courtesy are off.

73 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 2:50 pm

Hmmmm. We had to walk through that group to get to and from our cards.
There was no alternate route. I'm not defending anyone. I think
punching someone out is an inappropriate response. I think violent
language is inappropriate. I think the entire debate has spiralled out
of control.

74 Charley September 3, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Rice, a/k/a “ol'-nine-digits,” said the hospital would not reattach it because of the bacteria involved with a human bite. The finger got in the biter's mouth when Rice through his second punch. He said, “My finger went in his mouth and didn't come out.”

Rice pays. He also said he has no intention of suing.

75 boxo September 3, 2009 at 2:59 pm

Thanks for the unbiased report. It is a rare treat these days to find a simple straight forward accounting of what was seen and heard.

76 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:09 pm

well, if he's really 65, Medicare pays. It was a complete dustup. Who
knows how it got there? I certainly don't.

77 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:10 pm

No one deserves to be punched in the face or have their finger bitten
off. No one. No political issue is worth such a thing.

78 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:13 pm

This goes far beyond this debate. Far beyond it. It isn't clear what
happened. I was on the other side of the street. I have photos, but am
working with detectives to place them in context. I never said I had
all the facts. Eyewitness accounts are what they are. I make no claim
to be the single harbinger of accuracy. I saw a punch thrown, and a
man fall in the street. I saw a woman threatened before any of that. I
saw a hairball of a dustup. And I heard the biter's account. That's all.

79 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:27 pm

And again, I repeat what I said in the post and in the comments: I
don't condone, support or defend violent behavior. I do, however,
understand that when someone punches someone else between the eyes,
there is likely to be a response.

80 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:33 pm

You all are spinning now. I have consistently said I don't agree with
violence of any kind from any side. it's to your benefit to spin this
as some sort of egregious act on the part of Democrats, MoveOn, or
Obama, but the facts speak otherwise. NO Violence is acceptable. NONE.

81 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:33 pm

You're spinning too.

82 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Last question first: I am NOT joking.

My still camera is a Nikon D200 with a fast lens. I had a Nikon
CoolPix550 which would not pick up video in that light, especially
with cars passing. I opted not to even try, knowing as I do that the
video quality on that camera sucks. My D200 had a mid-level ISO
setting and a fast 1.8 lens on it. Yes, it made a difference. Huge
difference between the two cameras.

I don't know if anyone video'd the confrontation. I didn't see anyone
do it. It wasn't like it took 15 minutes. It was done in about 5

I don't know if the lady went to her car. I do know how tall she was,
and her demeanor. It was what I reported.

The people who heard the man's declaration were as incredulous as I.

83 Charley September 3, 2009 at 3:58 pm

Actually the man who lost the finger, His name is Rice, went on Fox News and admitted that he swung first and swung again. Your account is more or less accurate on that score. However, the number of anti-Obamacare protesters on the other side of the street and space around them tell a different story about how the event came to pass.

Who the initial aggressor was? Hard to tell.

It is starting to look like offsetting penalties to me.

84 Esthier September 3, 2009 at 3:59 pm

This is far from unbiased, though it's nice that she seems to be trying to be unbiased. She clearly framed the fight as something instigated by the man she doesn't consider a senior citizen even though he clearly qualifies as one.

She admits that she isn't 100% on any of that, which is nice, but ultimately irrelevant. She seems to know exactly what the old guy did to start the whole thing but didn't even realize the other man really did bite the guy's finger off?

Again, I appreciate it that she's trying to be unbiased, but she clearly isn't.

That said, I agree with her that both men behaved badly. Though it seems the older man will end up paying the biggest price, as he's now said that the hospital wasn't able to reattach his finger (as has been previously reported), because human bites have too much bacteria in them.

85 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:01 pm

When someone hits you square in the face, reactions are likely to be
volatile. Do I think his was appropriate? NO. Absolutely not. Do I
think your name calling is appropriate? No. Absolutely not.

86 Esthier September 3, 2009 at 4:02 pm

You haven't reported that a woman was threatened. You said yourself that you didn't hear what he said. He may have been stepping towards her and waving his arms, but that doesn't automatically translate into a threat.

I'm not even arguing that he didn't threaten her either, only that it hasn't been established that he was.

87 Esthier September 3, 2009 at 4:02 pm

You haven't reported that a woman was threatened. You said yourself that you didn't hear what he said. He may have been stepping towards her and waving his arms, but that doesn't automatically translate into a threat.

I'm not even arguing that he didn't threaten her either, only that it hasn't been established that he was.

88 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:03 pm

I am not a liar. You have no basis to say that. I knew NO ONE on
either side who was there. I came because I wanted to make a public
statement about support for health care reform. You don't know
anything about me. If you did, you would not call me a liar.

89 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:03 pm

Call me an asshole again and i'll block your IP. Behave and be civil,
or comment on your own blog. Thank you.

90 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:04 pm

If I knew his name, I would tell it.

91 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:05 pm

To be clearer here: Orange shirt guy wasn't the victim.

92 Esthier September 3, 2009 at 4:05 pm

So you support what Mike Tyson did?

Give me a break. Punching a political opponent is wrong, but it doesn't excuse dismemberment, which is a far more serious criminal offense. Rice has lost a piece of his finger, while the other guy might have a black eye that will eventually heal. Apples and oranges.

93 Charley September 3, 2009 at 4:05 pm

You have your facts wrong. Mr. Rice, a/k/a “Ol' nine digits,” was on Fox News. He freely admitted that he swung first and twice. It was the second punch that cost him his finger. Rice stated that his swing was in response to the the biter entering “his personal space.”

Might want to go easy on that lair thing.

94 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm

Well, you'd think they could, wouldn't you? You'd think it would be a
simple matter of inhabiting the same sidewalk. But it wasn't. Even
going back to my car, we passed through the lot of 'em, who were
certainly solicitous while cops were in the area, not so much before
that. Whatever. The fact remains, the first punch between the eyes did
not come from our group. The response was over the top. But it was

95 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:07 pm

Well, you'd think they could, wouldn't you? You'd think it would be a
simple matter of inhabiting the same sidewalk. But it wasn't. Even
going back to my car, we passed through the lot of 'em, who were
certainly solicitous while cops were in the area, not so much before
that. Whatever. The fact remains, the first punch between the eyes did
not come from our group. The response was over the top. But it was

96 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:07 pm

Actually, I never said he wasn't a senior citizen. I said he wasn't
frail. He wasn't.

97 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:08 pm

I'm sorry, but that's just disingenuous. When a man is verbally
approaching accompanied by loud language and clearly working to see to
it that she is shooed into the crosswalk, that's a threat. No, he
didn't touch her. He didn't hit her. But he very clearly used his size
and his language to intimidate her with the goal of running her off.

98 Emer_Doc September 3, 2009 at 4:15 pm

I can not speak to the facts as it relates to this case. I was not there. But, I did spend a lot of my teenage years living on the streets of So. Cal and I am now an emergency doctor, so I think I know a little bit about violence (fighting) and health care. First violence – if you physically assault (punch) someone they are likely to defend themselves. This may include biting off a finger or a range of other violent behaviors. People do not seem to realize violence is just that. The first man could have killed the other with his punch or vice versa. In this case one man lost part of his finger. The police should complete their investigation and file charges against the one who broke the law. That is physically assaulted another. It is not against the law (maybe stupid, but not illegal) to be in a group of people with differing political views and express a different opinion.

Second Health Care – this country will have health care reform. It will come by (hopefully) thoughtful deliberation or by the collapse of the current system if we continue to allow for profit industries to continue to dictate health care policy. While many people get emotionally charged up whenever someone uses the word socialism (communism, any ism….) we must face the fact that health care is not a free market (if you develop cancer and the drugs cost $25,000 per dose you will pay because your alternative is to die – not a free market) and our current system will not work for much longer.

It is odd as one person previously noted with all the other things taking place in society and our government that we are resorting to violence over an issue which will ultimately improve most normal people lives and is only likely to hurt the profits of some corporations.

99 Charley September 3, 2009 at 4:16 pm

Hold on there Cajuncocoa. I'm about as anti-Obamacare as you can get. It will trash the finest health care system in the world. It will cause an economic downturn in the stock market when a half trillion dollars in stock equity vanishes off the markets in the wake of private health insurance failures. It will bankrupt the US Treasury and drive what is left of wealth producing industries of shore with even higher taxes. And it will end up rationing health care because the money, infrastructure and personnel simply do not exist.

All that said, Mr. Rice (now known as “Ol' nine digits”) swung first and twice. By his own admission live and in person on national TV. He did so because the biter “entered his personal space” whatever that means.

Mr. Rice made chose unwisely in his decision making that day. He got what we used to call a “life lesson.” Perhaps next time he will not be so quick to throw a punch.

100 Jennifer Ster September 3, 2009 at 4:22 pm

A little more info…..

a TV interview with the bitten man(with a picture)….

A diferent sperspective from the other side…..

Basically this simply confirms both men behaving badly.

101 cajuncocoa September 3, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Seems to me there was LOTS of room to walk far around (instead of “through”) that group if you suspected they were troublemakers.

Unless, of course, someone was itching for a fight.

After hearing other accounts of this story, I no longer believe the 65 year old was the one who was itching.

102 Jen September 3, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Wow….people talking stupid all up in your post!

This is YOUR account of the story….which you seemed to imply from word one. Don't you love when people waste their own time doing pointless and negative things like picking apart the personal account of another? I wouldn't repeat my “I don't condone” comment again. If people can't understand the written form of our language the first time around, they're just looking for either an argument or an ego boost.

So for my opinion, both those guys sound like nutballs. How unfortunate for the both of them.

103 kevinshep September 3, 2009 at 4:33 pm

Seems to me that if PR went all the way across that road he was most likely the aggressive one. The Old guy didnt approach PR … PR approached Old guy. Just Say'n

104 cajuncocoa September 3, 2009 at 4:39 pm

I agree with your points on Obamacare (I'm also against it), and I agree that the 65 year old had no right to throw punches, but I disagree with you on the other point. The guy acted like an animal (with apologies to the animal community as they don't know better). There is absolutely no justification for him to dismember a fellow human being. None.

105 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:42 pm

orange shirt guy wasn't the victim. Just to clarify things.

106 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:43 pm

That's your right. He's already said he hit first.

107 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:44 pm

Hello? Pure speculation? One speculates when one isn't present. I told
you what I saw. You can believe or disbelieve. I don't KNOW the
biter's name. I do have a clear photo, which I have given to the
Sheriff's department. Isn't that what citizens do? Let the police
investigate? If I knew his name, I'd tell them. I knew NO ONE.

108 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:45 pm

Hello? Pure speculation? One speculates when one isn't present. I told
you what I saw. You can believe or disbelieve. I don't KNOW the
biter's name. I do have a clear photo, which I have given to the
Sheriff's department. Isn't that what citizens do? Let the police
investigate? If I knew his name, I'd tell them. I knew NO ONE.

109 Charley September 3, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Dear Emer_Doc,

How much do you get paid? How much of that are you willing to give up in order to hand control over to the government?

How are you going to feel when you discover that government bureaucrats will be reviewing all your decisions and evaluating your performance with their eye on the budget? Are you prepared to have your protocols and those of your paramedics revamped based on some government bureaucrat's idea of what is and what is not required treatment?

How about reviewing a stack of rejected medicare/medicaid payments at a local ambulance company with me. I would be delighted to hear your medical explanation of “Ambulance transport not needed.” when patients were:
- In respiratory arrest
- Experiencing a massive GI bleed
- Exhibiting stroke symptoms with complete loss of control over the right side of the body and a loss of ability to speak.

He has a large stack of those rejected payment notices he's gathered over the last couple years. Doctors, hospitals and other health care providers all have a similar stack. Try asking around at your billing department and see what they say.

Can you imagine what it is going to be like if those very same government idiots assume control over the entire population?

While you are justifying your call for government seizure of private property, would you tell me who should pay all the stock holders and owners of privately held companies for their equity in those health care industries?

My friend mentioned above might be happy to turn over the keys to his ambulances at a very reasonable price at this point. 48 years in the business and he's had enough.

110 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:47 pm

Oh, stop. Believe what you want about me and about who I am. When
someone is hit in the face, they respond, which is why no one should
have hit anyone. Period.

111 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 4:50 pm

I'm sure they're looking to use their incalcitrance to intimidate me
into bending to their point of view. I saw what I saw.

112 not a boxing match September 3, 2009 at 4:55 pm

Tyson was in a boxing match. It is a sport where two people agree to fight based upon a set of agreed upon rules. What Tyson did was unsupportable, but it has no relation to this event. Rice didn't engage in a sports event, he assaulted and individual who defended himself from Rice's illegal attack.

113 Dan September 3, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Great account. Both men, like both extremes on this issue, behaved badly. But I will say this, if you throw a punch at someone, you should expect a response. And there are no rules to a street brawl besides winning. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

114 Tom September 3, 2009 at 4:56 pm

I wonder whether your decision to take the photos home before turning them over to the police will leave them vulnerable to exclusion at the trial, assuming there is one.

It would be easy to argue that the photos should not be used because they could have been altered in the time between when they were taken and when the police received copies.

115 Tom_C September 3, 2009 at 5:00 pm

As more reports come out, we see that the victim lost his finger – it could NOT be re-attached.

Secondly, as more is told the victim seems less and less at fault here.

Thirdly, we see plenty of glee from the liberal about his man having Medicaid. Well, the hospital cleaned him up, gave him a bandage and sent hm home.

For a Medicaid patient they wouldn't try any heroic measures to save his finger, it was just a kiss and a band-aid. Minimal medical treatment his wife probably could have given him out of his medical cabinet.

Which makes the left bragging about Medicaid all the more absurd!

116 Charley September 3, 2009 at 5:08 pm

One other note on your “not-for-profit” thing. A few years ago I had occasion to be in the corporate offices of the Baptist Healthcare System in Louisville, KY. This is a non-profit organization.

Now I've been in and out of the offices of corporate Gods ranging from General Motors to Eli Lilly. Some of those offices are nice, some are down right grand.

But that corporate office at the Baptist Healthcare was well and truly over the top. The reception area consisted of a large room with fine furnishings and original paintings on the wall. A full concert grand piano graced one side of the room. A well stocked bar was along the other side. We are talking fine furnishings and fine accoutrement all around.

That corporate office was finer then any that I have ever seen. We are talking a display of opulence that one must usually go to a movie to see.

Don't hand me that “not-for-profit” garbage. I've seen not for profit. I should have such a lack of profits.

117 dejava September 3, 2009 at 5:10 pm

hell…any fool kkkknows if you stick something in the mouth of a Guy right after punching imin the face…. jeezzz that was dumb!

118 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:11 pm

actually, he opted for it not to be reattached.

119 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:12 pm

I gave a full statement to the Sheriffs at the scene and showed them
my photos at that time. it was agreed that they would not confiscate
my camera if I supplied them with the photos immediately upon
returning home. I lived up to that, gave them full size photos last

120 nobody agrees with scott September 3, 2009 at 5:14 pm

“Scott's” account doesn't even match the account of the guy “Rice” who had his finger bit off. So I think we can safely discount “Scott's” account. Rice's account more closely matches Karoli's account than Scott's

121 Name September 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm

“Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy or worse yet, reports characterizing him as a senior citizen. He was aggressive and ready to mix it up.”


122 matthewr83 September 3, 2009 at 5:20 pm

You are a poorly informed fool. Unless you consider my 5'5″ 160lb father to be very tall, you have trancended from sharing fact to fairy tail. My father wasn't even wearing an orange shirt. He was wearing a green shirt that was ripped on the left shoulder when I was able to visit him after his release from the ER where his finger could not be re attached. I am 26 years old and I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF MY DAD GET INTO A PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION OF ANY SORTS in my life.

He was verbally harassed by the first women that crossed the street AS HE WAS TRYING TO LEAVE THE EVENT. My father had no signs. He was not there to protest. Your organization staged an event that was practically in my father's drive way, and he wanted to learn more about what was happening in HIS communituy. If the man who crossed the street was confronting him in such a peaceful way, then why did my father, who has not been in a fist fight as long as I have been alive, feel threatened to the point that he needed to defend himself and his own personal space?

The only thing that amazes me more than your lack of factual information on the subject is your willingness to use the situation as propaganda largely painting the supporters of your cause as men of honor (with the exception of the man who bit my father). Quite frankly, the entire incident disgusts me, and I will continue to pray that justice will be served for the man that disfigured my father.

123 badka2ma September 3, 2009 at 5:22 pm

actually he did not, i saw him intervewed. he said the hospital told him the finger had zero chance of living due to the fact that it was a human bite and the bacteria would cause his body to reject it.

124 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:23 pm

and YOU conveniently forget that one in that little group of 12 or so

125 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:24 pm

You guys like to scapegoat SEIU for everything. I don't know if he was
or wasn't. I do know that the group was NOT agitating. My photos are
now available at

126 Charley September 3, 2009 at 5:27 pm

I'll bet they did. They have no legal right to confiscate your camera or even compel you to produce the photos. Only a subpoena can do that.

127 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:30 pm

characterizing him as a senior citizen suggests he was incapable of
violence or somehow infirm.

128 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:32 pm

Dear matthew,

The first women that crossed the street were there long before your
father or anyone else was there. I was already across the street when
you all arrived. The rest of your rant will stand, but if you come on
here and start with the name-calling again, I'll block you just as
soon as look at you.

129 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 5:32 pm

that's what he said, yes. there are conflicting accounts, evidently.

130 badka2ma September 3, 2009 at 5:34 pm

according to the man that got bit, the other man came at him so he punched him. the man came at him again so then he punched him again in the mouth, the other man bit down and got a snack. the point is when you intrude into anothers “personal space” you're then one that can expect someone to defend themselves. lunging at someone is action enough to allow the other to defend themselves.

when this all goes down, i would be willing to wager that the man that did the biting will be going to jail. he did afterall bite his finger off. the man that got bit may face charges also. but biting a finger off is not self defense by any means. a lady recently got 15 years behind bars for biting a maryland police officers finger off.

although we are talking about kalifornia here where up is down and down is up.

131 badka2ma September 3, 2009 at 5:34 pm

according to the man that got bit, the other man came at him so he punched him. the man came at him again so then he punched him again in the mouth, the other man bit down and got a snack. the point is when you intrude into anothers “personal space” you're then one that can expect someone to defend themselves. lunging at someone is action enough to allow the other to defend themselves.

when this all goes down, i would be willing to wager that the man that did the biting will be going to jail. he did afterall bite his finger off. the man that got bit may face charges also. but biting a finger off is not self defense by any means. a lady recently got 15 years behind bars for biting a maryland police officers finger off.

although we are talking about kalifornia here where up is down and down is up.

132 Charley September 3, 2009 at 5:34 pm

If this is truly your father, you should sit down and have a talk with him. He freely admitted on national television that he swung first and then swing again. Sorry, when he swung, all rules were off.

If your father were truly a man of honor, he would not have taken the first swing. Men of honor do not throw punches. Once a punch is thrown, honor is out the window until one side of the conflict surrenders.

He lost his finger. That is extreme, but some life lessons come at a high price. Hope he recovers form the event.

133 crossing roads is legal September 3, 2009 at 5:34 pm

Actually Rice himself says he started out by driving by the protesters, and seeing Code Pink there. He then parked and went FIRST over to the side of the street where the 100-150 group was, to find out if Code Pink was there to protest against war. He said he did this because his son was in the Marines. It was only after that when he went to the anti-Obama protest side. This is from an interview with Rice himself. So if your apportionment of blame is based upon who crossed the street, it was Rice first again.

In reality, it is perfectly legal to cross the street. It is NOT a violent act to cross the street and engage in speaking with people. It does not justify Rice starting the encounter by throwing punches.

134 dmontrk September 3, 2009 at 5:36 pm

I'm sorry, as and Independent, your story sounds biased and should not be referenced by other media, the police will figure out this he said she said crap.

135 Bill September 3, 2009 at 5:37 pm

You've got to be more accurate than that. I tend to mostly believe your representation of the events, but having set yourself up as a witness to these events, you have a responsibility not only to be honest, but also to think about your use of the language so that you do not cause more damage to the truth of the matter by opening your honest account to attack through carelessly prejudicial wording. You *wrote* a statement saying not to be fooled by reports that, “worse yet”, characterize him as a senior citizen. You did not write the statement, “he wasn't frail”. By your own standard of interpretation expressed here, what you *implied* can be taken as what you *said*.

You did strongly imply that he wasn't frail by your description of his actions. You also strongly implied that he shouldn't be given any consideration that people are normally wont to give upon hearing the words “senior citizen”.

Long story short, you as much “said” he wasn't a senior citizen (“Don't be fooled by” (those who) “worse yet”, “characterize him as a senior citizen”), as you “said” he wasn't frail. (And how is simply acknowledging that he is a senior citizen–which does *not* exonerate anyone from bad behavior–worse than, as you said, ginning up sympathy for him?)

You didn't actually write either statement, but what you did write supported Esthier's interpretation–”she doesn't consider” (him) “a senior citizen”–just as much as it supported yours–”he wasn't frail”.

What's more, Esthier isn't even saying you *said* he wasn't a senior citizen, just pointing out that you obviously don't want him viewed as one. The assumption you're making, which is probably true for a lot of people, is that when people hear “senior citizen”, they think “frail”. It would have been better to just address that issue directly, instead of making the sidestep of redefining the legal term “senior citizen” by implication and assuming everyone will go with you on that without direct explanation of your intent.

Why am I so finely parsing words here? Well, this whole story makes it apparent how when people aren't willing to put forth the effort to express themselves accurately, whole wrong impressions of events are widely disseminated.

It doesn't necessarily make me disbelieve your account, but it definitely detracts from it. I am still glad that you put it up, because despite the flaws, taken together with everything else I read before getting to your account, the overall effect for me, and hopefully for most, is to point up the need to withhold judgment in all of these things and not live one's life believing everything that gets reported.

As for perceptions of senior citizens and presence or absence of frailty, I personally care for senior citizens myself (and have recently experienced the first notable steps toward becoming one myself), and while I am continually amazed by how much youthful vigor they can display, it is also amazing to see how little it takes, often, to create a dramatic change that quickly takes all of that away, after a certain age.

136 rickg September 3, 2009 at 5:53 pm

This is strange. A fight breaks out between opposite sides and both passionately claim to be the victims. I say pro-reform wins. He left the scene on his own, anti-reform ended up in the hospital. Just goes to show how namby-pamby Americans have become – all mouth, no fists. Folks, if you really believe that your opponents are trying to RUIN YOUR COUNTRY (applies to either side here), you ought to be picking fights. With baseball bats and bad intentions. Of course, nobody really believes that, so we have screaming matches. Whooo-hoo!
The reality of this whole healthcare deal is – its pure politics. Repubs believe “this will be Obama's Waterloo” ; Dems, being Dems, haven't figured out what they believe yet. So it's really no more visceral than any other political debate.
More to the point, it's not really going to matter what happens at the Town Halls or the Tea Parties, or on street corners in TO. The ONLY thing that's going to make the difference is whether the Dems in Congress realize that if they don't pass healthcare reform in this session – which they can do all by themselves, without one Repub – they will lose a generation of support – just like they did over the Vietnam War. 16 years in the political wilderness
I've always felt we have been offered two parties – one unfit to govern, the other incapable. Or as the song says “a choice between cancer and polio.” The Repubs have confirmed over and over again their view of the Government as a way of collecting money from the broad masses of Americans and funneling it to their wealthy pals. The Dems have historically been incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. They have a chance to prove that they can effectively govern, but they'll have to ante up this year or they're gone. To my mind, regardless of the validity of the hypothesis that we need healthcare reform, considering the political landscape in Congress, if they can't pass this, they don't deserve to govern and we'll have a Repub congress and Prez by 2012.
Meanwhile, I'm expecting some pretty hot times in the old town between people who are deluded enough to think they have a say in this decision.

137 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 5:56 pm

Your group had members who crossed over. This guy did. He was not just walking through to get to the other side. Where is the video. If it was too dark to take video, then it was too dark to take still photos. I have seen the seiu place hands on people before and that was assault and if it had been done to me, I would have hit them too. That is why I am suspicious. I have not said it was them, but that is typical of them.

138 badka2ma September 3, 2009 at 5:58 pm

sen·ior cit·i·zen
• n. an elderly person, esp. one who is retired and living on a pension.


from the oxford pocket dict. it says nothing about frailty, or capabilities, the condition of ones mind or body.

let's not try and do the liberal dance on this one. you said it, it's in print.

if you can't get the guys height or the color of his shirt right then why in the world would anybody believe any other part of your story? you would not be considered a credible witness in a court of law. in fact you wouldn't even make it to the stand……

139 impaler September 3, 2009 at 5:59 pm

Sorry Charley,

Obama said, “if they hit us, we must hit back twice as hard”, and that has lead to these union thug confrontations, the Union thug crossed the street after the lady left, he went there to cause trouble, then when an elderly man confronted him, and recieved a punch, this is a direct result of PR mans determination to cause trouble, He I believe will be held liable under the laws of California, however, I will start arming myself at our protests to protect our group from PR man's cowardly antics, and I find it hard to believe “not” that no one from has turned in this loser.

140 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:00 pm

You all fight it out. I've got a 20 year old on the floor writhing in
pain as he tries to ready himself for a procedure that might be able
to figure out why he has lost 15 lbs in 4 weeks and can't keep food in
him without suffering in pain. Have a great day.

141 Bill September 3, 2009 at 6:00 pm

See, that's my whole point I'm trying to make in the comment above. Emotional honesty is great, but when bearing witness to an event, adding in statements that lean heavily toward one's emotional reaction, just typing the first (or sometimes even 2nd or 3rd, when genuine complexities are involved) words that come to mind to describe a situation without adequately considering the full implications just confuses the issue.

It's true that much of the “characterizing” you are talking about insults people's intelligence, and takes advantage of the deficits of many. All the more reason to make special effort to elevate the dialogue, especially when it is in writing like this.

It makes one wonder if anyone on either side of the street really knew what they were talking about, if there was any point to it at all. After all, there are many cases down through history where people have been in the majority, gathered together, felt the love, politely explained and honked their support for things that proved utterly disastrous.

142 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:06 pm

In general the SEIU has promoted thug behavior since they got involved. It is just the same way that they act during one of their strikes. Protest all you want, but never try to limit my right to do the same. I will wait to see what this guy's connections are–note, I have only my sispicians at this point and am not accusing the SEIU in THIS CASE yet.

This has to be a huge embarrassment for the Pro POTUS folks either way. Of course, the LA times tried to play the story in reverse and had to finally admit that it was the guy that bit the 65-yr-old guys finger off. On top of that it is coming on the heels of the big revelations today that show that Van Jones is a nut case and Obama is going to have to throw him under the bus. Boy would I have to be Robert Gibbs on Tuesday!

143 crossing roads is legal September 3, 2009 at 6:09 pm

According to Rice (“The Old guy”), he went over to the large group of protesters to confront them before he went over to the side of the street that the conflict happened. According to your logic, this makes Rice the first to be aggressive, even by your standards.

In reality, crossing roads is legal, and is not a form of aggression.

144 rickg September 3, 2009 at 6:09 pm

Way more important…way more real…best wishes…

145 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:11 pm

Bill, seriously. I have a 20 year old kid writhing on the floor in
pain right now after barfing his guts up while preparing for the
colonoscopy scheduled to figure out what has caused him to lose 15lbs
in the past four weeks. These facts are not in dispute: The biter was
hit first. The biter was hit twice. He bit the tip of Mr. Rice's pinky
off. Motives are irrelevant. Those are the facts. I tried to give a
sense of what led up to it and what MY IMPRESSIONS were. I did. You
all spin it however you want.

146 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:13 pm

I would have to disagree. If anyone crosses the street ranting and raving and threateningly comes in to my space I have every right to defend myself and will. That goon is lucky he picked out the old man. How can you say that no one can fight even to defend oneself! That attitude is the same one that makes it so hard to win a war. Every time there is a single innocent casualty which happens in war, the liberal media start their whining.

147 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:16 pm

it didn't happen that way. sorry.

148 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:17 pm

Now that is not a very logical argument because you left out the fact that Rice did not instigate violence by crossing the street to see if code pink was there. Your guy crossed the street and instigated the altercation. Can you admit that your guy should not have crossed the street just to cause conflict?

149 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:22 pm

They have the affinities backwards.

150 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:23 pm

the deeper root is fear. Those who oppose stirred up some key groups'
worst fears.

151 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:23 pm

Well if that story is true, they certainly secure evidence. If they did that as told, then they screwed up and a good lawyer is likely to get them excluded. There are plenty more though so it probably does not matter. They have a good photo of the guy now. All they had to do was take the disk and mail it back to her. Personal desire does not prevail over evidence. The cop was nice to her.

152 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:25 pm

There were no heroes. No one was exempt. But yes, KTLA reported it
incorrectly because they interviewed one person without getting the
story from more of us.

153 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:26 pm

biker02 So your third party account was from an unbiased person? Why did you have to resort to calling Ravan and asshole. Now you sound like ignorant Van Jones! Come down here and talk to me that way. I will be glad to give the address.

154 RH September 3, 2009 at 6:30 pm

They should have denied the bastard health coverage

155 Charley September 3, 2009 at 6:36 pm

Impaler, the last thing you need to be doing is carrying a gun anywhere, let alone some place where some hothead is going to get one of you killed and the other jailed or executed. That is stupid with zeros.

Don't over look the problem of being arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. (I'm going to assume you don't have a carry permit. If you did have a permit, you would have had the classes and know just how wrong your statement is.)

No one likes thugs on either side of the fence. But they can be easily dealt with using non-lethal means. When the smoke clears everyone will be alive to tell their side of the story and the facts can be sorted out.

Once someone fires a gun there are no take backs. Do everyone that may be anywhere within range of you a favor and leave your piece at home.

156 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 6:38 pm

Ok, I see now. You are clearly not biased now that I read this. A man “shooing” a lady back in a conversation that you did not hear and give little detail of is threatening and intimidating but a man crossing the street and arguing and yelling and coming into the personal space of another person is not threatening. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

157 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:48 pm

I am telling you that it didn't happen that way. He didn't rush up
arguing and yelling.

158 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 6:50 pm

They gave it to the networks without any credit back to me for taking
it. Ironically, I would have offered it myself, but did ask credit
since I take photos all the time and occasionally get paid for the
artistic ones.

159 Charley September 3, 2009 at 6:51 pm

Rick, you are buying into an urban myth perpetuated by police officers. Seizing a photographer's camera and/or his pictures is strictly illegal as long as the photographer is a by stander.

Even if the photographer is the one being arrested, the police officer must have probable cause to believe that equipment was used in the crime or contains evidence of the crime (Think child porn for an example.) Even then the police cannot develop the film or look at the pictures on the memory card without the suspect's consent or a warrant.

If you are really interested in photographer's rights, check out this PDF file:

160 theresasp September 3, 2009 at 6:53 pm

No facts to support this … just hearsay … interesting …. LA times has nothing either … there most likely is NO STORY … LIES

161 Charley September 3, 2009 at 6:55 pm

The minute you handed over the pictures they became part of the report and public record. That means free for all the media. Check your local papers tomorrow, you stand a good chance of seeing those pictures again.

162 TheRudeDog September 3, 2009 at 6:55 pm

Yeah right. You libs got in their face and tried to “mix it up”

An old man broke your buddy's ass, and your finger munching friend is running from the cops …why?

Because he defended himself?

163 TheRudeDog September 3, 2009 at 6:57 pm

Oh yeah? And you took the time to post that?

Lowest of the low…

164 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 7:07 pm

Ironically, I would have handed them off to the public anyway. I held
back because I felt (wrongly, I suppose) that the police should have
them and be able to use them to investigate things. I was always
willing to put them out for free. I simply wanted credit back.

165 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 7:08 pm


You live up to your reputation. Your tone and choice of words speaks
for itself.

166 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 7:09 pm

It's a distraction from the retching and groaning. Excuse me for
commenting on my own blog. If you continue with the tone you've taken
right now, you'll be commenting into dead air.

167 dejava September 3, 2009 at 7:11 pm

what a sorry sad state the usa is in… tax cuts allow lower wages… poor access to health care scares the lower rungs and the working class must be prevented from spending money on imported goods. Repubs play the same games and are at least as oppressive.. their choice is no choice.

Bush's reign started w/ arthur anderson/enron and ended w/him doing to the global economy what he did to all his other “endeavors”. How much do you think he and his lost in the melting?

and here his psycho lot are out to eat obamma…who is an alien trying to steal their vital juices. We should all be a lot more discriminating but then that would make us worse than hitler communists… sickkk, sad

168 Charley September 3, 2009 at 7:13 pm

Badka2ma, you do know the difference between assault and resisting arrest with force, right?

169 Charley September 3, 2009 at 7:16 pm

Pushingyourluck, How do you plan to pay for all you propose?

While your figuring that out, let me point out that the Samaritan was a private citizen doing a good deed with his own resources. The United States government was never meant to be in the charity business.

Since we disagree, does that make me a bully?

170 Charley September 3, 2009 at 7:19 pm

That is not what he said on Fox News. He stated the hospital would not attempt to reattach the finger because of the bacteria problem with a human bite.

171 Name September 3, 2009 at 7:25 pm

You should stop trying to reason with these crazy people, if they dont believe you, then why do they bother coming here and post?? Thanks for giving us your side of the story. It seems very truthful.

172 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 7:31 pm

Thanks Charlie. I do understand your point however my point is that a reasonable person would think that there was probable cause to think that the photos contained evidence of the crime and the identity of the participants. A reasonable person interested in justice would just ride to the station and have the disc copied or whatever to preserve both the evidence if any and also the photos for the person taking the photos. Maybe I am wrong, but I just think citizens should help in any way they can to help out. Heck, they probably could have taken anyone there to the station to take reports if they really wanted to be a pain in the butt and I know for a fact that they can be that if you catch one of them on a bad hair day.


173 jennifer1977 September 3, 2009 at 8:09 pm

Umm… he says himself in the interview that he hit the guy, hit him a second time.. and his “fist ended up in his mouth”

Hmmm… if you jam your finger in someones mouth.. and they bite you..arent you to blame for putting it there in the first place? lol

174 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 8:23 pm

Are you suggesting that I didn't go out of my way? You'd be wrong. I
volunteered my photos and my account to them. I could have been quiet.
I could have said nothing. They would never have known I saw anything.
I chose to speak to them because it is what GOOD citizens do.

175 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 8:25 pm

And a hospital spokesman contradicted him, saying that the finger
could have been reattached, but he opted not to. Is his choice related
to the possibility of bacteria? Perhaps. They also said nerve damage
woudl result. Perhaps he chose not to deal with that. But the fact is,
he admits sticking his fist in the guy's mouth and hitting him. When
you stick your hand in someone's mouth, they may indeed, bite.

176 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 8:27 pm

No Karoli, not suggesting that. Charlie and I were discussing the law in general as to the securing of evidence etc. I am glad you told them that you had the pics. Sorry if it sounded like that.

177 linusbern September 3, 2009 at 8:34 pm

Video requires much higher light levels than still photography, this is simply a fact.

Unions are made up of ordinary working people, what have you got against the working class?

178 Name September 3, 2009 at 8:34 pm

Christ, what do you do talk them to death?

179 youwerewarned September 3, 2009 at 8:35 pm

Nothing better in a Health Care Debate that 2 idiots now need health care. From this point forward…Let the traitorous anti-government NEOCON Republiclowns be on notice that if they tend to stick their fists (fully unprovoked of course…Thank's to FAUX NOISE and their talking but usually lying heads), twice in someones mouth over a simple comment that their hands may just be missing fingers when they withdraw them.

Glad that hot tempered punchin' but now jus' a missin a pinkie simpleton 9 digit “Senior Citizen” understands he was wrong and had a public option like Medicare to fall back on.

Congressmen have it, old folks have it, vet's have it, for God's sake…Even Illegal Aliens have it…The rest of us in America should have it too!

Just pass the dang bill.

BTW, great story and told w/ the straight scoop too according to the bitten idiot. Don't listen to the super minority “insignifican't” NEOCON crowd. It is why they are THE PARTY OF NO!

180 DiesMali September 3, 2009 at 8:44 pm

$1000 is how much the surgeon is reimbursed for doing the surgery, yes. The actual cost to the PATIENT, for a foot amputation, including anaesthesia and hospital stay and fees, IS $40,000. Just treating a slow-healing diabetic ulcer can cost you up to $8000.

There's something very wrong with the health care system if a patient has to go bankrupt to pay for a lifesaving operation, the surgeon who saves the patient's life only gets $1000 of that, and the malpractice insurance companies and hospital and pharmaceutical executives walk away with the other $39,000 and buy another Mercedes.

181 Tom_C September 3, 2009 at 9:35 pm

“Let the traitorous anti-government NEOCON Republiclowns be on notice that if they tend to stick their fists (fully unprovoked of course…Thank's to FAUX NOISE and their idiot talking but usually lying heads), twice in someones mouth over a simple comment, that their hands may just be missing fingers when they withdraw them.”


182 techn0lady September 3, 2009 at 9:49 pm

Firstly, may I express my wishes for a speedy resolution and swift recovery for your son.

Secondly , I appreciate your account of the story. It seems unbiased to me.

Thirdly, remember what Barney Frank said about arguing with tables? You're going to get utter incompetents on the internet and may I suggest that your entire blog would be best served if you simply deleted the comments of the ones who are impolite, use curse words and continue to endlessly argue nitpicks rather than just stating their point of view and leaving it at that. I personally don't believe that freedom of speech gives anyone the right to be aggressively rude or to be a professional idiot.

Seriously, just delete their comments and block them. Your blog, your life and all our time will be better off for it.

Thanks and best wishes again to your son.

183 Cornfudled September 3, 2009 at 10:01 pm

Wait, orange shirt guy wasn't the one who got bitten? Did he hit PR guy, too, or was it only khaki shorts guy (the one who lost his finger) who hit PR guy? It would make more sense if khaki shorts guy had his finger in PR guy's mouth when orange shirt guy hit him in the jaw. The force required to sever a finger with your mouth is considerable; much easier if there's an external force exerting pressure on it.

Bad things happen when you stick your fingers in somebody else's mouth against their will, so I'm not crying too hard about any of this, but I don't think it quite holds to say that anybody was protecting single-payer-flier woman if she was already across the street several minutes before this started.

184 juliesa September 3, 2009 at 10:05 pm

The Ventura paper says that Rice, the guy who threw the first punch and lost his finger, was wearing a khaki shirt, not orange, as you say. They have a picture here

Rice was on TV for an interview, and he looks like the guy in the khaki shirt in the photo at the link.

185 Cornfudled September 3, 2009 at 10:16 pm

That picture was taken by the blogger. It's in her Flicker stream ( I think she made a mistake in editing the text, here. It's more clear from her twitter feed who got bit.

186 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 10:37 pm

correct. wasn't orange shirt guy. Orange shirt guy also didn't throw
the punch. He was close by, but not the puncher. This is why no
reporter or policeman should rely on one eyewitness. I had the
sequence right (Mr. Rice confirms) but was incorrect about who was

187 ricknelsoniluvit September 3, 2009 at 10:43 pm

Nothing, I was raised in ordinary working class. What I do have a problem with is unions overreaching and protecting bad workers and holding companies hostage for excessive wages and outrageous benefits. Then running companies into the ground and expect me as a tax payer bailing out their pensions and salaries. Then I go out and buy a car that cost a couple of grand more because of the Union. I also have a problem with the bullying I have seen by the unions at town hall meetings. My dad help lead a union in the South at a time when a union was really helpful for a while. Then soon, the union bosses came by and told him to slow down and not work so hard because it made the lazy guys look bad and more would be expected from everyone else. He was just doing his job for a company that he chose to work for and from which he received a fair wage. The union also protected horrible employees who did not deserve a job and would not last a week working for a non-union company. That is not the purpose of a Union if you review any history of the Unions at all. Unions have gone to the extremes and in my opinion are simply now extorting companies and intimidating people. This hurts their original purpose. Always taking sides politically, even though many members or the rank and file are opposed to the candidates that they support. Is that fair. How would you feel if you were one of those members and the union played the same game against your positions? How fair is it for a politician to preference jobs to go to union-only contractors. Non-union workers have families and bills and desires to get ahead just like you do. I also oppose the SEIU's alliance with Apollo. They stand for everything that I oppose. We have no single point of agreement. I work very hard and I will contribute to charaties of my choice, but I am not going to have the government take what I earn and give to those that they choose who typically have no understanding of personal responsibility. I do not owe anybody anything and not going to be a slave to Government buying votes by keeping people enslaved to entitlements.

188 Karoli September 3, 2009 at 10:46 pm

Thanks. I usually dislike deleting comments because I do believe in
people's right to free speech. But one can only listen to nonsense for
so long before wanting to shut off the spigot. I'm not there yet, but
would appreciate basic civility.

189 Name September 3, 2009 at 10:59 pm

• n. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of “home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”


If it is reported that there was a physical altercation between a man and a senior citizen the connotations of “senior citizen” suggest that he was frail, infirm and incapable of significant violence. Clearly this was not the case in this instance.

Maybe you ought to learn about connotations before you try to “correct” other people's use of language.

190 disgustedbyyourblog September 4, 2009 at 12:07 am

Well I just listened to the man that was bitten. My heart goes out to him. He has a kind heart and a clearer understanding that Obama and his cronies are up to no good. Blog Girl, I wonder if you are even from Thousand Oaks area. You stated earlier that you knew no one in your own group and that you came by yourself just to show support.
As far as the perp is concerned. He should pay the medical bills for the man's missing finger, rather than our tax dollars. He should be personally responsible for making restitution for the loss he has caused. This is not tax payers responsibility, but his.
Also, he will find out that if he pay with cash, the bills will be considerably lower. I know from experience. When you pay with cash, you don't have to pay all the middle men who get a cut when you use madicaid or any insurance.
The man that Bite's The Hand That Feeds Him through his tax dollars should come clean. Blog Girl. I hope you give his name and address to the police.

191 SOLERSO September 4, 2009 at 12:24 am

Its a good thing 4 fingers has medicare, thats accepted at every hospital in the area

192 SOLERSO September 4, 2009 at 12:24 am

Its a good thing 4 fingers has medicare, thats accepted at every hospital in the area

193 Magic Dog September 4, 2009 at 12:34 am

Wingnuts, try punching me in the mouth and you'll be lucky if a finger is the only think you're missing.

194 death to faux news September 4, 2009 at 12:55 am

Your father is poorly informed and LYING fool. fuck him and I'm sorry he didn't lose more fingers, except that I have to pay for his medical bills. that's more than his greedy ass is willing to do for someone else less fortunate. fuck you.

195 death to faux news September 4, 2009 at 1:01 am

He wasn't kind, he was stoned by his own admission on the cavuto interview. he assaulted the biter by his own admission. and for what? to keep others from getting the exact medical coverage he himself has at taxpayer expense. he is a hypocrite and he deserves what he got. repubs are so thin skinned. they can dish it out but as soon as a lib fights back they freak out. they are a bunch of pussies.

196 Emer_Doc September 4, 2009 at 2:33 am


I am sure your friend has a large stack of medicare rejection letters.I am also sure he receives a large number from for profit insurance companies also. I also bet he has a whole host of accounts in collections because the uninsured can not or will not pay. If you think anyone who actually provides patient care does not face the same issues your friend does you are mistaken. We all do.

We also have to deal with different rules from each and every provider. You ask “How are you going to feel when you discover that government bureaucrats will be reviewing all your decisions and evaluating your performance with their eye on the budget? Are you prepared to have your protocols and those of your paramedics revamped based on some government bureaucrat's idea of what is and what is not required treatment?”

To be honest all my decisions are reviewed all the time by someone who may (not always) have a BA/BS in some subject and work for an insurance company. Their decisions are always based on the budget. (Along with an entire host of other organizations involved in some manor or another in health care.) So I actually do not think it would be much different from my standpoint.

As far as pay is concerned. I think some physicians pay would decrease and some would increase. No one is talking about nationalizing all the hospitals, doctors, ambulance companies, drug companies, labs, etc… We are talking about changing who pays. If there were one set of rules and everyone was covered, providers who now have many people who do not pay would make more. Those who have a patient base of well insured patients would probably make less. Very highly paid specialties would likely make less. As for me personally, I do not know if I would make more or less. It could go either way. I do realize I may very well make less. But I also believe it is the “right” thing to do even if it means a lower salary for myself. As for your friend's income I can not predict.

There are good models which do not place an undue burden on providers, do not nationalize the system, provide high quality care and research and cost less. (Germany, Japan and yes even Canada – I am sure this will provoke an onslaught of rationing stories – we also ration, just by who can pay.) However, they carry the stigma of “socialized medicine” which stirs up peoples emotions without an examination of the actual system. Again I will point out health care is not a free market. A free market allows a consumer to have valid choices (and also providers). Look at your friend's ambulance company. When someone calls an ambulance they do not get a choice of who responds. They do not get a price list to compare to the competition (there may not even be any competition) they do not have a choice. Your friend also does not have a choice. He can not charge up front, he can not refuse service because someone does not pay. He can not make someone sign a contract. There is no choice for the patient or your friend. And in a free market others can compete freely. Ask your friend what would happen if he attempted to enter a market served by AMR. I am sure he would agree there is would be many obstacles to compete in those markets. And for those who develop a serious illness like cancer your choices may be pay the cost or die. Again not the underpinnings of a free market. So we should just throw out the verbal baggage of “socialized medicine,” “free market” etc and start to look at what works to provide high quality care to all of our residents of our country.

I am sure my post will generate some dissent. That is fine, perhaps even useful. I will not be responding to this topic further as I really do not have the time for it. Also to be honest I doubt many people change their minds based on comments made by myself or anyone else.

Thank you for your input.

197 obamaiscommunism September 4, 2009 at 3:00 am

I love how your side of the story makes it sound like your side was so innocent, nice peaceful, like a bunch of angels and a big bad man (65 year old ) beat up some pore guy. I think what I have read everywhere else, has more credibility. Judging from liberal, progressive, and the radical lefts history when it comes to protesting. I believe the account of the pr-Obama care protester getting in the face of they old guy and the old guy pushing back then the Pr-Obama guy biting his finger off. Your story sound just as believable as Obama’s story on how we can all keep our own insurance if we like it or it wont be rationed. I’m only sorry I wasted the time reading your false account of what happened through your rose colored glasses. Nice try BTW how old was the poor little buy that bid the finger off the senior citizen?

198 Uppercutt September 4, 2009 at 5:24 am

I cant beleive that this is the response this blog girl gets. She tells her side of what she saw and the closeted guys with names with communism in there title have to go all commando. The guy that lost his finger admitted to hitting the guy Twice I beleive. He threw the first punch and admitted to it, he is also not talking of lawsuits…. yet. That seems like Guilt. Oh yeah he also is delusional, he has this idea that government health care is the first step to totalitarianism or some such paranoid plot. He is clearly fed into the mass hysteria of that channel he was on. For Gods Sake Please quit listening to glen beck he is the bucks fascia of TV propagandist. Please try to be as respectful as blog girl was to the opposing point of view. I would try to be but im having Chicken and FINGERLING Potatos right now.

199 Uppercutt September 4, 2009 at 6:28 am

Seriously….your trying hard with the lecture. It was her account and she worded it like she witnessed. Picking out certain things to downplay the fact the “Senior Citizen” was not a sympathetic character as one would assume is just muddying the waters.

Somehow I think you know this! The old man Physically attacked someone and the other responded. There is no more debate about that he admitted it. Trying to change an eyewitness account and tweak it to shift blame is all your really trying to do.

This was an ugly event from what I read, but trying to manipulate someone into changing there wording? Thats pretty much being a dick. Do you need clarification on that?

200 kcdad September 4, 2009 at 7:29 am

What? Other media aren't biased? Of course it is biased. That doesn't mean it isn't accurate.Karoli's story is the ONLY one in the media that has the ring of truth to it. Anyone notice how the media has avoided this story like the presence of WMDs in Iraq since yesterday afternoon. THERE ARE NO UPDATES TODAY ON THIS.

201 kcdad September 4, 2009 at 7:34 am

BRAVO! I know many doctors fed up with the “business” of health care and who just want to be healers again.

202 kcdad September 4, 2009 at 7:38 am

And why did the PRO-Obama guy get in his face? Isn't that the missing motivation in the other stories? Was it the Rushbeckhannity “Angry Black Man” excuse? Liberals are all animals unable to control their behavior. Or, as Karoli suggests perhaps it was a response to the old guy bullying the woman… THAT makes sense.

(The old guy wasn't there to protest… RIGHT!)

203 Danownsyou September 4, 2009 at 8:01 am

If anyone were to ever strike me into traffic and then stand over me with their finger in my face you bet your ass I would bite that bitches finger off. PR was probably in fear of his life. The only thing that I would have done differently was that I would have swallowed that finger and sent it to the raw sewage plant.

Dan was right!

Live by the sword, lose your finger by the teeth.

204 albertross September 4, 2009 at 9:26 am

You have to watch out for those 'pore' guys. Friggin' dermatologists think they can do anything!

205 anon76 September 4, 2009 at 9:42 am

I have yet to figure out how one gets one's finger into another's mouth by simply throwing a punch. Seems to me some part of the equation is missing.

206 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 9:45 am

So, to be clear here…you think it's perfectly okay to punch someone
out twice, knock them down, have your fist “in their mouth”, and blame
the dude you just punched? Both of them were wrong, in my view.
Evidently you feel otherwise. Have a great weekend.

207 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 9:46 am

I'd appreciate it if we could ratchet down the rhetoric here on both

208 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 9:50 am

Well, Mr. Rice said it. I didn't.

209 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 9:54 am

My story squares with the account of the man who was bitten. Hope that
helps you sort things out better.

210 anon76 September 4, 2009 at 10:19 am

Yes, I know that is Mr. Rice's account. And what I am calling into question.

211 disgustedbyyourblog September 4, 2009 at 10:55 am

You clearly are trying to put words into my mouth that I have not spoken. You follow Obama's Move On . Org agenda very well. Don't try to start something with me hoping I will defend myself and then try to expose me as the one causing the trouble. You and your Biter Buddy who Bites the Hand that Feeds Him through our tax dollars may have done the same thing you are doing now.
I will have a nice weekend by the way. I hope yours is healthy for you and your son as well.

212 dejava September 4, 2009 at 11:12 am

the army is socialist along with insurance. corporations are gangs, fascisti.

213 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 11:59 am

Sigh. So much for mutual respect. Be well.

214 disgustedbyyourblog September 4, 2009 at 12:12 pm

How so? Do you think your “So, to be clear here…” was respectful?

215 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 12:53 pm

Did I call you a name? I was seriously restating your argument to be
sure I had it clearly understood. Did that offend? Don't you want me
to understand you?

216 disgustedbyyourblog September 4, 2009 at 1:05 pm

Not sure how you came up with the argument you proposed. If someone causes damage, that someone should pay for the damages.

217 scf September 4, 2009 at 2:22 pm

it matters because she caused the fight

218 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 2:34 pm

She caused nothing. She has a right to be on that sidewalk without
being chased away, just as anyone from the other side of the street
could have come into our group. I guarantee you they would have been
treated better.

219 justawful September 4, 2009 at 3:15 pm

“if they hit us, we must hit back twice as hard”

So… maybe don't go around hitting anyone in the first place? Seems like a pretty simple way to avoid… um, let me phrase this in a way that jives with your worldview: putting yourself into a position to be unjustly victimized by someone just because they cowardly impacted their face on your fist?

“He I believe will be held liable under the laws of California,”

You I believe have little working knowledge of the self-defense laws of California. Do yourself a favor and Google them.

And nobody “makes” you throw the first punch. When you find yourself justifying a person's actions with the boilerplate defense of an abusive husband, you're on pretty shaky ground.

And just to be clear about what you're implying- biting someone who has punched you: reprehensible. Shooting someone who is bothering you: totally cool. Our nation can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that lucid, rational individuals like yourself are packin' heat.

220 justawful September 4, 2009 at 3:31 pm

We are all Kenneth Gladney!

Who, you know, had a website up gladly accepting paypal donations to support his upcoming speaking tour accross the country, which he organized within *48* hours of getting “assaulted” by the SEIU.

Credibility? What the Hell's that?!?

221 JuniperLimb September 4, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Karoli is presenting the events according to her own recollection. That does not mean she is intentionally spinning anything and does not deserve the attacks and ridicule.
Eyewitness accounts are known to be suspect. It is only by combining the stories of several witnesses from both sides that the actual event can be judged. Each person's account will be colored by their perception. This is normal. Everyone would do well to simmer down and wait for all the facts to come out.
I tend to lean in the direction of Mr. Rice's story. That doesn't mean that it is the correct version, but I do find it telling that the biter has yet to come forward. It is impossible that he doesn't realize that the Ventura County Sheriff wants him for questioning. And yes, I'm against the current reform package being presented and that likely colors my interpretation as well.
Don't get me wrong, the current system is far from perfect, but what has been presented is not the way to fix it. But this is not a health care debate, this is about an incident that occurred.

222 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 5:32 pm

Thank you for being fair. You are quite right about eyewitness
accounts. In my meeting with the detective yesterday, it soon became
obvious that while my recollection of the sequence of events was
correct, I had switched Mr. Rice with the man in the yellow shirt. I
will be writing more about this shortly. However, here is where Mr.
Rice and my accounts converge: the man who bit was indeed hit first.
He was hit once, then hit again (I said there was a scuffle), and the
second hit was the one where the man bit down. Mr. Rice and I are not
in dispute with each other on these facts. We can differ on who
provoked who, or what took place ahead of the confrontation, but we
are in agreement on this much.

Also, I agree with you on this: The man who bit should step forward.
It's wrong of him not to. To an extent, I can understand not wanting
the publicity, but if that were all there was to it, he should've
backed off and left the whole issue alone. It's certainly not to his
benefit to continue to remain anonymous and missing.

223 Bill September 4, 2009 at 5:44 pm

You're probably right about the trying too hard part. But not on the manipulating into changing wording. I still stand by the fact that she added some personal-feeling color to what she witnessed that ultimately does harm to its integrity, that it *already* has the effect of changing the eyewitness account (or at least how it is perceived), particularly if not read carefully, and it should have been more stripped down to facts, more on what she witnessed, and if she objects to “characterizing” the 65-year-old as a senior citizen, it simply should have been made more clear that he *is* a senior citizen, but not what you usually think of. Just saying statements like that appears rash and hurts the effect of your account. In a court of law, it would be properly examined and would be of value to determining the truth, but I think we have all seen over and over examples of dialogue that show that we need to be mindful when submitting statements to the “court of public opinion”, such as on these blogs, to be very clear and not off-the-cuff when we are using terms like “Senior Citizen” that affect large swaths of population, because regardless of who has the worse intent in misusing them, each person who engages in any way in the misuse becomes part of the water-muddying problem.
I mean, this is essentially an anonymous post. Everyone therefore always has in the back of their mind that anything written here could easily be completely fabricated or inaccurate. So what else do we have to judge the likelihood of that other than the internal consistency and even-handedness of what is written?

We need to get out of this mentality of automatically trusting whatever seems to support our worldview. It's what gets us into these messes in the first place, on *both* sides of the street!

224 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 5:48 pm

It is by no means anonymous. This *is* my first name. There aren't
many with my name living in this area, for sure. I'm not hard to find.
My facebook profile and LinkedIn profile are both on the sidebar, both
with my first/last name. CNN interviewed me with my first and last
name, as did KNX radio and TPM. You don't have to like my style or
what I said. But anonymous? No way.

225 Bill September 4, 2009 at 6:07 pm

OK, I will certainly give you a lot of consideration for probably not being up to usual critical/observational form, going through that. I seriously wish your son well and feel for you; I have a 20-year-old of my own, and right now, my wife has been going through a lot of bleeding until she had to have transfusions, the biopsies show precancerous fibroids, and she will need to go to the City to have a laparoscopic hysterectomy to minimize problems that might arise from her many diabetic complications.

We obviously both have a lot of reason to be highly interested in how healthcare funding & delivery occurs.

So it was the tip of his pinky? Hadn't caught that part yet; it has been sounding this whole time like the man lost a whole finger.

Besides being very regrettable and shameful on both sides, the whole incident is rather fascinating to me, because it does appear to have such a perfect symmetry of the occurrence of 2 wrongs, of 2 individuals having unhealthy aspects of motivation, but both of whom it seems could easily have gone either way, been channeled positively or negatively as they were stimulated by legitimate grievances, that escalated into this debate-marring collision between them.

It seems that if this story could be adequately resolved and explained, the same principles would resolve darn near any conflict we all face on any scale.

226 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 7:14 pm

Thank you, Bill. Fortunately we were able to get a diagnosis today, so
hopefully life improves for all of us. I wish your wife the best,
too…that's a miserable condition. I totally agree that if we could
figure it out, we could learn a lot about conflict resolution.
Frankly, if either one had turned and walked away, it could have been
avoided. I'll also venture to say that the rhetorical escalation that
has inundated print, paper, Internet, and radio has intentionally
stirred passions and played on fears, causing the classic fight or
flight reaction.

227 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:04 pm

I have no problem if it is true that he is going on a speaking tour. I am happy that it is just another opportunity to oppose this health care disaster. I think we could use every available forum.

228 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:06 pm

I did read today that the authorities are going to file felony charges on the biter but not the amputee.

229 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:14 pm

Charley, your crudeness and apparent delight in someone else's loss of a digit reveals much about your character and it certainly doe not help your cause. If fact you are quite an embarrassment to them I imaging. Maybe you should take some quiet time and do some introspection.

Fact is that the authorities are charging the biter with a felony. That should tell you something.

230 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 10:15 pm

Link please?

231 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 10:16 pm

A speaking tour? Joe the plumber, redux? geez.

232 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:22 pm

I guess you had a bad day today since it turn out that Glenn was right and Van Jones is creeping toward the exit door and a congressional investigation. You seem fine with expressing your opinion but think by demeaning others who disagree with you will make them not express their views. You are wrong. You produce no facts in arguments, simply rant and rave. POTUS'S buddy Van Jones signed a loco 911Truther conspiracy petition, made many racists comments on video, is a proud communist, hates capitalism. Now he is in big trouble because Glenn Beck is the only one to take on the Whitehouse. Facts man. Take a valium or something.

233 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:36 pm

I had trouble finding the article from this morning but this article is similar.

234 Karoli September 4, 2009 at 10:40 pm

the speaking tour claim was what I wanted the link to. I've seen the
TPM story.

235 ricknelsoniluvit September 4, 2009 at 10:46 pm

Sorry, somebody on another post was upset that this guy was gonna do a speaking tour. I have not got problem with that if it is true but have no reference for it of if it was just another goofball comment. I have no link and it did not interest me.

236 peace1 September 5, 2009 at 12:39 am

violence is unacceptable. to justify violence is wrong whether you are republican or democrat. if you cant dialogue you shouldnt be part of the political process.

one thing, im tired of hearing people say “i pay taxes” blah blah blah. last time i checked, no one is discriminated when paying for goods at the grocery store and at any store in america. we all pay taxes its about what we use our taxes for.

unfortunately, corporations are using certain political/ religious groups as puppets for spreading lies and passing agendas for their benefit (for the few to get rich) and not the general people.

237 Name September 5, 2009 at 2:09 am

what exactly did you socialists think was going to happen ?? your boy king has found an excuse to take over the auto industry , the banking industry and a large part of the insurance industry …. he also wishes to control content on the radio by way of “localism” rules at the f.c.c. … he appoints “czars” to positions of power who hold some of the most radical views ever represented in the white house … on top of all that he wants to take over health care too .. when socialists try to overtake a free country , FREE people usually respond … move your socialist asses to Venezuela or Cuba …

238 Karoli September 5, 2009 at 2:15 am

I rest my case.

239 Karoli September 5, 2009 at 2:17 am

By the way…you *do* know what socialism is, yes? If so, you also
understand that it is *not* a political system? And if it is not a
political system it cannot be used to 'take over a country'. Now don't
let facts and education get in your way. Your baby Bush had more czars
than his daddy did. Get over it.

240 gfoxr September 5, 2009 at 2:59 am

Just because Socialism is not a political system, that does not mean that a politician (who happens to be a Socialist) can't use *political* power to attempt an implementation of his/her chosen ecomomic system.
What Bush, his Daddy or George Washington did is a red herring in the debate about this administration's use of an unprecedented number of powerful Whitehouse officials (Czars) who are un-voted on, un-reviewed and un-accountable…except to one man and one man only….the man who appointed them.
Can you say “Conflict of interest?”

241 markmacy September 5, 2009 at 3:22 am

Orange shirt? Brown shirt? Healthcare? Socialism? When a social system gets sick and bloated, and the situation gets a bit complicated for our petty human minds to grasp, it’s natural for us to start pointing fingers at each other and name-calling. One less finger in the fray now… (sorry). My job today (Saturday) is to sort further through this (healthcare) mess, boil it down to the basics, and publish it on my own blog. Then I'll try to post a further-boiled-down version here. Stumbled onto Karoli and drumsnwhistles a moment ago while googling. Love what she says and how she says it … Gotta go…

242 Puzzled September 5, 2009 at 3:44 am

Just curious, Name – would you prefer that GM and Chrysler had gone through a bankruptcy unassisted by the government? This is a sincere and straightforward question. I'm trying to understand how it is that these events “add up” as you have them put together. Thanks.

243 Susan September 5, 2009 at 7:49 am

Disgusted I live in CT not CA and have been uninsured at times. My insurance company is billed a lower amount than I am charged when I pay in cash myself.

244 tgh September 5, 2009 at 8:14 am

You know, this BS story would have been just a little more believable had you not tried to paint your side as totally innocent. And as far as the pictures you took? As an observer – they're worth about as much as this one-sided, poorly written article – NADA! I'm certain other pictures were taken at that time that tell a very different story than the one you're trying to force on people here. This healthcare issue is SO complicated you do neither side a service by writing this kind of garbage! Do us all a favor and quit clogging up the internet with this kind of nonsense trash!

245 Charley September 5, 2009 at 10:52 am

I would have preferred a legitimate bankruptcy played by the rules rather then the rigged game we got. That little exercise in making-the-rules-up-as-we-go-along put the unions at the front of the line when federal bankruptcy law had them at the back of the line.

When anyone enters into a contract (Real estate, mortgage, car loan, bond purchase, etc.) the terms of contract are supposed to be valid through the life of that instrument. And the rules about what happens if either party bankrupt are supposed to remain the same as well.

Think of it like this. You sell someone a $100 lawn mower to be paid in 30 days. On the fifth day that person comes back to you and tells that you will accept $24 as payment in full or they will declare bankruptcy. You tell them to go ahead knowing that federal and local bankruptcy law will require that he return the lawnmower to you.

But when he declares bankruptcy, the White House steps in and asks that other unsecured creditors be moved to the front of the line because these are were union laborers. Low and behold, in violation of federal law, the judge sides with the White House and the debtor gets to keep the lawnmower and you have to accept $7.12 on your $100 debt.

That one slight of hand trick by the Obama administration sent the US bond market into a crash dive. Bond holders, along with most of us, do not like it when you change the rules in the middle of the game.

With that one action, bonds became far more risky because the old rules went right out the window. Bonds used to be fairly stable investments with a relatively low return because of the low risk. Because the risk went up, US bonds will have to offer a higher interest rate because they will be harder to sell. In the mean time, bond investors are taking their purchases off shore to countries that still obey and respect their financial laws without special favors.

Europe and the Pacific Rim are raking in millions in capital that would have been used here in the United States. That is capital that will not be used to fund expansion and new jobs.

That will make recovery from the current economic crises a lot more difficult and lengthy. And we have President Obama and his screwing around with the system to thank for it.

246 Charley September 5, 2009 at 10:55 am

I liked Joe. And I think every thing he was worried about is coming to pass.

247 Charley September 5, 2009 at 10:57 am

You haven't been in all that many fights, have you?

248 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:17 am

It's a shame you won't be commenting back. There is so much we need you to explain.

My friend already has AMR and Rural Metro in his area. They came in and promptly under bid him on the city and county contracts in his area. Their transport prices are less then his cost. That is called free market. (I suspect that he will get sick of the whole thing and sell out to one of those two in the next five years or so.)

It is good to hear that you won't object to having the government (or anyone else) second guessing your medical decisions. That means you will fit into the new order just fine.

It will never be tolerable to have my physician keeping his eye on what anyone will pay for rather then what is best for me. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you already sold your self out.

Based on what you wrote, the only evident improvement under Obamacare is there will only be one list to check before you decide what is best for administration… err, I meant patient.

249 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:20 am

Did you try to negotiate with the health care providers for a better price?

250 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:23 am

Peace, you should study economics.

By the why, anyone is free to get as rich or as poor as they like in this country. All it takes is a little work.

251 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:27 am

Tax cuts allow lower wages?

Health access scares the “lower rungs?”

The working class can't spend their money as they fit?

Where are you getting that from?

252 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:36 am

I've been working and haven't seen anyone from the hospital interviewed. Based on the current HIPAA laws, I'm amazed that anyone from the hospital was able to even admit he was a patient at one time.

We agree on that part about putting a finger in someone's mouth.

On another note, are you ready to lock comments on this post yet? It looks like more then a couple whack jobs found you.

253 peace1 September 5, 2009 at 11:49 am

haha, i do kno economics. whats funy is that a lot of republicans and rich people claim to kno economics but they are the ones who got us in this mess in the first place. spend trillions of dollars on the (holy oil) war. lets not regulate busineses, let them do what they want and take advantage of consumers. ive dealt with various businesses (as a business owner) and businesses take advantage as much as they can. just bc you have money doesnt mean you kno economics. haha

since you know economics, tell me how you justify this. is it justified that we can use OUR taxmoney for the Iraq war that will eventually cost us a few TRILLION DOLLARS but its not ok to spend our taxmoney on healthcare. the question comes down to: who is benefiting from the health corporations getting rich? is it you? if not, then why are you supporting them and not the american people?

ALL industrialized countries have universal healthcare. The reason America doesnt have it is because the corporations scare people into not getting a healthcare system that will make their profits go down and will also bring them competition. You do know about competition right? And in case you didnt know, most industrialized countries that have healthcare are capitalist. and even china which is communist, is the fastest growing economy and has universal healthcare too. so theres not excuse why america doesnt have universal healthcare.

I think you should study more on sociology(and economy), and i wouldnt recommend fox news for that. lol. getting rich doesnt always take “a little work” unless you have mommy and daddy to help you or you have a network of other rich/successful people to help you out. if it were so easy to get rich, wouldnt more people be rich. haha.

i duno, who has a better understanding of economy and the world? me or you?

254 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:51 am

What “not a boxing match” said about the comparison of this event to Mike Tyson's stunt.

While the end results of the battle may be apples and oranges you are conveniently over looking the fact that Rice swung first.

From a legal stand point, the cause and effects of an assault are also apples and oranges. What matters is who made the first physical move. You see, unlike some stunningly ignorant school districts the law allows you to defend yourself.

The man Rice struck could have killed Rice and it still would have been ruled self defense as long as he stopped the minute Rice stopped fighting.

From a moral stand point, Rice made the decision to punch another man and lost a finger for it. That is a called a life lesson.

255 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:54 am

Or, it could be a simple study on the history of government run programs.

256 Charley September 5, 2009 at 11:58 am

Agreed! It is unreasonable to assume that you can reason with some of these people.

Nice camera. I'm a cannon shooter myself.

257 peace1 September 5, 2009 at 11:59 am

medicare, medicaid are social programs. i dont understand why some people have problems with public programs. isnt social security a social program, isnt even PUBLIC schools and PUBLIC parks funded by the governement? with the greedy conservative mentality maybe all of those things should come with a price. lets make everyone pay for school, parks, medicare, hey lets even make everyone pay for tap water. survival of the fittest. if you dont have money, then die! that works doesnt it?

NO! it doesnt.

none of us live independently of each other. anyone who makes money is because thye had to get the good or service from one person in order to sell it to another person. we are all interdependent. the sooner we realize that the better this world will be.

258 fmouse September 5, 2009 at 12:01 pm

You know, the mood in this country is heating up to the point at which it begins to resemble the period before the US Civil War in places like Kansas. At that time, in many places, if you were an abolitionist and spoke out, your life was in danger, and many people were killed for their views. During and just after the war, human life became even cheaper. Hate is contagious, and many of the most vehement haters these days also have guns.

It's hard to say this, but it's looking as if blood will once again run freely on the soil of America before we once again have some semblance of peace and reason in this country.

259 Charley September 5, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Nonsense. That is just common sense. He who swings first bears the burden of what ever comes from it. Mr. Rice, formerly known as Ol'-Nine-Digits went on national TV and freely admitted he not only swung first, but he swung twice.

As for the charges on the biter, I don't think so. He may be charged, but he will get off. It is a slam dunk for any marginally competent lawyer. Even in the Left Coast Land of California, you are still allowed to to defend yourself from a physical attack.

Perhaps you should spend some quiet time ponder reality. Like the reality of what you would do if someone assaults you? Or perhaps someone assaults someone you love in your presence.

It is amazing how fast people will change their “moral code” when they are being beaten.

260 Charley September 5, 2009 at 12:32 pm


The Mike Tyson reference is not applicable here. Mike was in a boxing ring participating in a sport that has rules against biting.

In the case at hand we had one person physically assaulting another. What ever happens to the person that threw the first punch is their fault. That is morally and legally defined as self defense.

Based on what you wrote above, it is safe to assume that you have not been around a great deal of street violence in the last couple decades. So I'll bring you up to speed.

Variations of the Marquis of Queensbury rules went out of style for street/bar room fighting in the 1920s when “gentlemen” would step outside to settle their differences.

Sometime in the late 1970s those unwritten rules began changing again when the losing combatant was no longer allowed to surrender, with or without honor. For reasons that are not clear the attitudes in US Society, especially among teens and young adults, changed from just winning the fight to beating the losing party into humiliation, sometimes even to death. Many blame the gang culture for this subtle change of combat etiquette but no real cause has been proven.

Since that time anyone finding their self under assault can only assume their life may be at stake. Anyone that fights with some unwritten code of conduct in mind handicaps themselves and puts their health and life at greater risk.

In a street/bar fight situation you take any advantage you can that will end the attack and neutralize the threat. That includes biting, hitting, scratching and attacks to the groin, eyes, nostrils and ears. Even going so far as using whatever is at hand for improvised weapons.

The object is to stop the attack with the kind of prejudice that gives the attacker serious reluctance to resume it. Anything less can get you hurt, maimed, crippled or killed.

And I don't get the last reference. I'm not related to anyone named Bobbett. What did I miss?

261 ricknelsoniluvit September 5, 2009 at 12:39 pm

Well Charley the law is fortunately not written around your definition of common sense. Read about it under felony mayhem. For example even of one starts a fight it does not mean the other person is at liberty to do anything he wants. He could not pull out a gun and blow his head off for instance without imminent threat of death. Also a person is allow to swing first in any case if there is reason to belief he is threatened. Stop shooting from the hip or from you limbic system and read the law. This is not the New York legislature who writes the law as they go according to need. You seem to find it difficult to even agree that this guy of yours brought on the whole situation. I would bet you still even support Van Jones' latest racist remarks revealed just today. Do you? I am open minded enough to criticize my side much of the time and not some lemming letting groups like tell me how to think. Rational like yours provides much entertainment for me. Everyone can use a good laugh reading such pathetic posts. Karoli is a reasonable and apparently intelligent person, though we could not agree more on the health care issue. She can grasp concepts and form arguments that make sense and follow basic logic. Your do not. Read her posts and compare them with yours and you will see how pathetic you appear to anyone with any intellectual abilities whatsoever.

262 Charley September 5, 2009 at 1:13 pm

“i duno, who has a better understanding of economy and the world? me or you?”

Clearly, based on your last post, I do.

263 dejava September 5, 2009 at 1:40 pm

a)read macro ec then look at reagan and bush history. it's all there, nothing new. Plus that corpo tax break thing reagan was on about took money from mom and pops

b)”poor access to….”

c)bush boom working class (boiler room loan//phone bank workers etc) live in a managed economy too… excess money has been rechanneled to new “Enrons”

264 ricknelsoniluvit September 5, 2009 at 2:05 pm

Congratulations, you have just won the award for the most ad hominem attacks in the fewest number of words. Great ratio. You win the prize but not the argument my child.

265 ricknelsoniluvit September 5, 2009 at 2:11 pm

You have no concept of the law or application thereof. You try to talk a good game but it is just crazy bar room legal mumbo jumbo. Stop embarrassing yourself because you are starting to sound like Billy Carter.

266 Charley September 5, 2009 at 2:16 pm


You've got a couple things wrong here. First of all you are assuming that I am pro-Obamacare. I am staunchly opposed to it. The government has proved itself inept at running every other federal or state social program. With that track record, the last thing I want is the federal government bankrupting the nation so they can screw up our medical system too. So Mr. Finger-biter is by no means my man.

There is no need to go into detail on the rest of your presumptions on where I stand on Moveon, Van Jones other then to say wrong again.

We are going to disagree that Mr. Finger-Biter brought it on himself. Yes, he made a bad decision to go across the street and confront the people there. I freely admit he may have had a chip on his shoulder. But he did not get physical until he was assaulted.

Rice swung first and then he swung again. Anything that happened to him after that was his fault. Finger-Biter defended himself from an ongoing attack as evidenced by the method the finger got in his mouth and verified through public statements made by Mr. Rice. At worse for Mr. Finger-Biter, that is offsetting penalties.

I am just as willing to criticize bad actors on my side as well. That is why Mr. Rice is getting very little sympathy from me.

Who is for and against health care or where my political beliefs lay have no bearing on the facts and the law.

Speaking of the law, you are right, this is not New York. However, you should brush up on your California code. Let me refresh your memory, assuming you ever knew this to begins with:

PENAL CODE SECTION 203-206.1 Every person who unlawfully and maliciously deprives a human being of a member of his body, or disables, disfigures, or renders it useless, or cuts or disables the tongue, or puts out an eye, or slits the nose, ear, or lip, is guilty of mayhem.

The key word in that paragraph is “unlawfully.” Even on the Left Coast self defense is not unlawful. Clearly this bite was in self defense. The connector “and” means both conditions must be present to meet the law so malice will not even make consideration.

Now then, perhaps you can show me something in California law that supports your other statements. I think the statutes are on the web. In particular I want to see:
- Where does it say you can take physical measures against someone that is too close to you?
- Where is it written that pointing a finger and yelling is considered assault?
- Short of drawing a gun (which brings in a whole different set of rules), knife or other instrument commonly defined as a lethal weapon, can you show me where the law limits allowable defensive during an assault?

- Extra credit: Show me where in the law it says you cannot use a weapon, other then a firearm, to defend yourself from an assault.

If you can provide the related California statutes and/or case law to support your position I will rush to concede your points. I would rather be corrected then wrong.

I'm glad I was able to entertain you. I'll be here all week and don't forget to tip your servers.

267 Charley September 5, 2009 at 2:24 pm

I have studied history. In fact I was alive and paying attention during those years. That is what led me to question your statements. And they are still questionable.

268 Charley September 5, 2009 at 2:31 pm

As I said above, show me case or statutory law the contradicts my interpretation of the law and I will be happy to concede your points. In the mean time, do you think you could share you legal background with us?

Are you in law enforcement?

Perhaps a lawyer?

Maybe even a paralegal?

Or just another bar room know-it-all?

269 ricknelsoniluvit September 5, 2009 at 2:54 pm

Much better Charlie and I do respect that type of logical argument. I hate to read all these blogs that are 100 percent name calling and no facts to even respond to. It is impossible.

Here is the general or broad view of the law but it is variable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. This applies in Pennsylvania and I will have to have some time that I do not have at the moment to pull California. The police spokesperson did say pretty much the same in one report that I read however. For the statute citation, I will try to look that up.

Self-defense, non-lethal force:

Criminal liability is distinguished from civil liability in that it is the state which brings charges against the defendant, as opposed to the victim or his estate. The general criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him. Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this position. The critical language under this standard is ‘reasonable belief’, ‘unlawful’, ‘about to’ and ‘necessary and proportionate’.

In order to establish a reasonable belief, the court will use both a subjective and an objective standard. The subjective standard determines whether this defendant did in fact believe that an attack was imminent (whether reasonably or unreasonably). In arriving at this conclusion, the defendant’s state of mind is relevant. Thus, a paranoid defendant might introduce evidence of his condition to show that his belief, however unreasonable, was at least genuine.

The reasonableness of the defendant’s actions is judged by an objective rather than a subjective standard. The reasonable person standard is one of the most difficult aspects of the law to understand. In an effort to do justice to both sides, the law requires the trier-of-fact (usually the jury) to consider whether an ordinary person in the defendant’s position would believe that force was about to be used against him. The defendant’s (and the assailant’s) physical characteristics and past history will be taken into account, but mental condition is of no concern. Thus, comparative size, weight, strength, handicap or pre-existing injury may support a reasonableness finding, but unusual sensitivity or fear will not.

There is no simple formula for the legal application of force in self-defense under American law. The confusion is due, in part, to the complexity of the issue itself, and in part to the variety of state laws within the American legal system. The requirement that the force defended against be unlawful simply excludes the right of self defense when an ‘assailant’, such as a police officer, is legally authorized to use force. It must be noted however, that a majority of jurisdictions allow the use of force, including deadly force, in resisting an attack by a person not known to be a police officer, and the use of non-deadly force against a known police-officer attempting to make a wrongful arrest. Pennsylvania does not allow the use of force in resisting wrongful arrest, but it does allow the use of force if an arresting officer unlawfully threatens to use deadly force, or does not identify himself.

‘About to’ refers to the imminence requirement for the right to self-defense. It is not enough that the assailant threatens to use force in the future, or upon the happening of a certain event. Thus the statement “If you do that one more time, I’ll punch you” is insufficient to trigger the right to self-defense. The threatened use of force must be immediate.

The force used in self defense must reasonably appear to be necessary to prevent the attack, and must be proportionate to the gravity of the attack. Thus, for example, if an assailant is about to slap the victim, responding with the use of a fire-arm would be excessive and therefore beyond the scope of the right to self-defense. The proportionality standard under Pennsylvania law is articulated as a prohibition on the use of excessive force, but the fact that death results does not automatically produce a finding of excessive force.

Self-defense, lethal force:

The standard for use of deadly force is, predictably, higher. The general criminal law allows for the use of deadly force anytime a faultless victim reasonably believes that unlawful force which will cause death or grievous bodily harm is about to be used on him. Again, Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this standard.

The faultlessness requirement does not mean that the victim must be pure of heart and without sin. It does mean that the right of self-defense will not be available to one who has substantially encouraged or provoked an attack. The general rule is that words alone are not enough to be considered a provocation under this standard, but there are exceptions. For example, saying ‘I am about to shoot you’ might well constitute sufficient provocation.

270 markmacy September 5, 2009 at 4:02 pm

When we get past the drama of the current healthcare crisis and debate, the first thing we notice is the sky-high price of health insurance, so we’re inclined to blame insurance companies. But they’re just the scapegoat. Health insurance is expensive because health CARE is expensive. Doctor visits, hospital procedures, malpractice insurance, and drugs are all expensive in America, adding up to huge bills submitted to insurance companies, which then have to pass on the expense to policy-holders. But before pointing fingers at doctors, lawyers, and drug-makers, we have to realize that these guys are FORCED to raise prices; corporations by law have to do whatever they can to maximize profits for their shareholders. The result: ever-growing health care costs. That’s just the nature of capitalism. But we can’t blame capitalism, which traces back to the idea of “survival of the fittest,” the idea that living systems (and social systems) compete in the terrestrial ecosystem, and only the most adaptable survive. So on Earth, life is very competitive and ruthless, and apparently it’s been like that for a long time. So… to get to the root of the problem we’d have to trace back to the most ancient of times for the answer…when and why did life on Earth become ruthlessly competitive… and why are we humans are the way WE are, with a noble side that wants to make sure that everyone's taken care of (like with a public health care option), and a savage side that fears that controlling forces like government will strip away our freedom to survive in a hostile environment. Until we can understand why we have that schizophrenic nature, the drama will continue. And THAT, in my view, is the real core issue in the healthcare debate… and it's what I'm devoting most of my life to figuring out…

271 Charley September 5, 2009 at 4:04 pm

Interesting. If this interpretation is correct, then you made my point for me. The simple fact the finger was bitten off while Mr. Finger-Biter was being punched in the face makes the test for self defense based on this interpretation of the law.

I had no idea that Pennsylvania standard for self defense is so backwards.

This line from the first paragraph is a nightmare all by itself: “The general criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him.”

I feel for law enforcement having to operate under that standard. It opens the door for what we called the “I hit him back before he hit me first” excuse. That takes away officer discretion and forces them into “arrest them all, let the judge sort them out” mode.

That kind of badly written gray area law is bad for all concerned. It puts the police officers in a bad spot. It is bad for the public because bullies will soon learn all they have to say is “He was a threat, so I knocked his teeth down his throat.” It is bad for the victims because innocent people are going to be booked into jail, charged and incur legal fees for doing nothing more then defending themselves.

Or worse yet, fearing a trip to jail and the stigma that goes with that, victim will agree not to press charges if the aggressor will not press the matter. The thug gets a free pass.

The only thing worse then a bad law is a badly written law.

Fortunately the law in the states I am familiar with, California included, is far clearer on the matter of self defense. It comes down to the first physical act of aggression.

The last paragraph before lethal force is too vague to say how this will play in Pennsylvania. However the example about using a firearm after a slap is consistent with my training. Under that standard, the bite will pass the legal test. To my knowledge there is no law on the books that forbids the use of teeth in a fight.

But this has nothing to do with California law. If anything it might have something to do with Pennsylvania law in a general sort of way. But this is a general interpretation of some compilation of laws across the country. Each state is going to be different. I would prefer to the read the statutes for myself rather then someone's take on those statutes.

272 dejava September 5, 2009 at 5:31 pm

nuanced args are not suitable for the class represented by those “to the right of attilla” ; so ' preaching to the choir. In fact “heresy” means freethinker, same as “liberal”/”communist” etc to the “conservatives” ( meaning liberals who want everyone to follow their parochialisms and whose imaginations are restricted to power and self)…

fundies are authoritarians. the fight is between them, the caths, prots, illuminari with a side of islam and jews and all who get drawn into the idea that systems are more real than life; utopes..

there's history, then there's history and then there's history not counting psychology, philosophy, ethics. Then there's “The Athenean Constitution” and Plutarch and the crisis of feudalism masked as capitalism

273 peace1 September 5, 2009 at 7:26 pm

haha. great logic! nothing to support your statements. but i guess its typical of the close-minded.

dont forget that we are all interdependent. your money is a result of the actions and hard work of other people too. and one last thing, if you didnt get it the first time, the US is the ONLY industrialized nation without universal health care. as long as i pay taxes, i have a say of where it goes. so clearly, based on that fact, I have a better understanding of the world and economy. but whats the point of arguing with a robot.

274 SOLERSO September 5, 2009 at 9:12 pm


275 disgustedbyyourblog September 5, 2009 at 9:27 pm

The general people I know have benefited by using their own freedom to make money in a free capitalist market. Not sure why you don't see the same kind of agendas and lies that the government uses to keep people, (maybe such as yourself) in a lower class situation.

Not sure why you are convinced 'the general people' can't make it to a better financial situation by using the freedoms we have here in America to do create wealth and pay our own way.

Giving governments too much power and control over our businesses and decisions leads to dicatorships and bankruptcy. As Margaret Thatcher had said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually it runs out of money”. Without free enterprise to create jobs, goods and services that people buy causing money to flow in the market, the available money needed to fund government programs will decrees. Then there will be fewer dollars to pay for services (health insurance) that you want the government tax revenues to pay for. If you would support an open market, money will be generated and made available to pay for the health insurance that we all want. But to demand that the government tax us, pay for our doctors visits and medical needs, shut down the free markets is asking for bankruptcy in a short period of time. The 'rich people' that you are so upset with will not have as much money to pay in taxes. Then the tax revenue will reduce and you will be told by the government that you gave the power to to accept lesser and lesser coverage. And you will not have a revenue generating job to go to to pay for more coverage with more tax dollars. You will find yourself to be stuck. If you think that you will get a government job, remember that job will cause less tax revenue etc. You will find yourself in a financial downward spiral.

A good example of what you are asking Americans to do would be Russia. They too thought they (The Little Guy) would have a better life when they gave their government the power to control the flow of money. They found themselves in an oppressed, poor, environment. East Germans lived in an oppressive environment when their government had too much power.
Our founding fathers understood this tendancy and devised a wonderful constituion for Americans. Can't figure out why your side doesn't appreciate the foundations they gave us and instead want to follow the paths of oppressed people.

If you look at social security and medicare, they are bankrupt. Our credit lines to other nations are becoming more and more limited. Buy locking us into the government as the only place to shop for health insurance, you open yourself up to the possiblility of even higher rates.

Our economy will spiral south.

I wish I could understand how your side thinks we can pay for government funded health insurance and not bankrupt our nation.

276 peace1 September 5, 2009 at 11:07 pm

First, Id like to say that I appreciate your response. I have had trouble understanding the other side on this issue as well. Most people Ive spoken with just come off with bogus claims without facts to support them and oftentimes simply attack Obama without stating their logical views on this medicare issue. Your comment is more refreshing.

I definitely believe capitalism is necessary. Although China considers itself communist, it is capitalist as well. It is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Any country that is solely communist, socialist, or capitalist will not be able to support its people. What is necessary is a mixture of capitalism to support the people of the country. All industrialized countries, most of which are capitalist, except the US have universal healthcare. The US is also still one of the most wealthiest countries in the world. Its hard to believe we cant afford it while all the other industrialized countries can.

What has led to our deficit is the war in Iraq. Its odd so many Republicans supported that war and so many are against universal healthcare. Republicans supported this war to save American lives from terrorism but wish to leave Americans to die because they cant afford to pay medical costs. Not to forget that defense accounts for most of our government spending. Maybe more should be spent on saving American lives in a more concrete way.

My family is middle-upper class and I own my own business. We worked hard for our money but it wasnt easy. Coming from our educational background and being the right color didnt hurt either. Not everyone benefits from the “freedoms” of America. There is still much inequity in America in regards to Education, race/social class. I am making my American dream come true and I want everyone to be healthy enough to make that dream come true too. What wouldve happened if you got sick and you/your family couldnt afford healthcare. You wouldnt be here today, and I wouldnt be talking to you. Human life is valuable. Im happy to say that recently there was a bipartison agreement to insure that children would be provided with healthcare but there is still work to be done. These insurance companies have been taking advantage of their consumers with denying people based on vague “pre-existing conditions” and simply ignoring them or showing in fine print on the contract how they are denied. I dont agree that everything should be run by the government, but I believe that the government should make sure the companies arent taking advantage of their consumers and I still believe those who cant afford it should not be denied the right to live.

Back when Clinton was in office we had a surplus of half a trillion dollars with all of these social programs in effect. He was also trying to implement health care reform but Republicans denied it. Whats interesting is when he was asked how he balanced the budget, he said that when he went to grade school 1+1=2 and he figured that rule still applied. I dont believe its easy, but I dont believe its impossible when we have money to spend on so many other trivial things. This health care reform is long past due. We can balance the budget, its a matter of what we give priority. Theres no reason these companies can make money off of providing medical insurance and the U.S. cant. Thats a more healthy recycle of money then fattening the pockets of a few while the country goes bankrupt and sick.

277 anon76 September 6, 2009 at 10:06 am

I've been in enough to question Mr Rice's accounting of the incident. Two simple punches? Closed fisted? Seems PR guy's mouth would have had to have been open and he'd perhaps lose a tooth or two with such a blow.

Teeth cuts on knuckles, okay, I can buy that. IMHO, either the second shot was a slap or there was some wrestling going on.

278 Charley September 6, 2009 at 6:03 pm

Anon76, You haven't been in very many fights, have you?

279 Uppercutt September 7, 2009 at 3:50 am

OMG, are you really that stupid? Glenn Beck was only after Van Jones for one reason and Fox too because they were losing revenue. Be a lemming. Frankly what facts do you produce or beck for that matter? It is all conspiracy and art critic stuff and your no better than a bircher so go and get an education on things that you think you should protest instead of lifting it from insane people on FOx. I would go in to detail but your set on the ways of the crazy. Read the stuff on jones or on the rockfeller center or on helath care reform etc. The propaganda that spews from Newscorp is enough to make anyone want to throw up.

280 ricknelsoniluvit September 7, 2009 at 1:43 pm

You are such a funny loser. Makes my day. Van Jones on words, signatures, and racist videos are what killed him. I would consider those facts. No you would not be capable of logical argument so I would not waste time to respond to such ignorance. Have a good day.

281 ricknelsoniluvit September 7, 2009 at 1:49 pm

Buy the way, that would be 17 years post-graduate education so I will compare CV's with you any day of the week. I noticed in one of your latest posts you say “your no better” instead of “you're” no better. I can either assume that is simply a typo or that you simply do not know the difference. I wonder how you pronounce “ASK”. Is it “AXE”?

282 Karoli September 7, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Your last question was completely out of line and consistent with the
hypothesis that much of the hate and opposition comes from racist roots.

283 ricknelsoniluvit September 7, 2009 at 2:37 pm

What was racist about that dear? Are you making the assumption that a particular race cannot pronounce a simple word used frequently in the English language! That is absurd to make such an assumption. On what basis in that assumption made? I am concerned that you would imply that mis-speak is limited to a race rather that the lower intelligence that I did imply.

284 ricknelsoniluvit September 7, 2009 at 2:40 pm

Also, don't even start that race baiting with me. You need to be talking to James Rucker and Van Jones about that. I have saved lives of more people of color in my career than you would ever dream and treated them just like my family. So do not dare go there.

285 anon76 September 8, 2009 at 9:51 am

Asked already and answered. I'm going to make the assumption you've been in many fights. Tell me, are you still in possession of all your digits?

286 Uppercutt September 8, 2009 at 6:19 pm

Thanks for proving your Rasict undertones! I will even give you a benefit of a doubt and say your just prejudice to class and standing. That still allows me to see that you are with out merit in this debate because you are in fear. No Wonder you are delusional and paranoid…..Fear will drive the scared into a panic.

God bless you though because you will see that there is nothing to be scared of. The black man isnt going to indoctrinate your children and the libs arent going to set up fema camps next to your church. Get ahold of your self man. Quit being a scared little bitch. Quit listening to crying aholes who make up crap and start reading all the stuff good and bad.

287 ricknelsoniluvit September 8, 2009 at 7:27 pm

Well all you did was name call indicative of your obvious ignorance of the details of the issues. Obama is failing because of substance, not race. And as far as the B word it was childish and I welcome you to come and have the courage to express such to my face. Anytime puss. Just let me know.

288 Vicki551 September 16, 2009 at 8:32 pm

Yes, we would have preferred that they file for bankruptcy and the bankruptcy was adjudicated in the courts ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Bankruptcy would not necessarily have meant that they went out of business and ceased to exist. It might have just meant that they would be re-organized. The takeover by the federal government was unconstitutional and did not do us, the citizens, nor the companies any favors not to mention the senior citizen investors who lost their life savings and support they had been counting on for their retirement years. Many of these investors are over 80 years old and there is no way they can get back into the workplace at this point in their lives. The corporate bonds that they were invested in were supposed to be the most secure, stable investments with little risk for people in their circumstances. This type of bond had NEVER been a 'risky' or speculative gamble in over 80 years and that is why they were willing to accept a lower return on their money than with a higher risk instrument. It is unconscionable that this administration would make senior citizens destitute at the end of their lives in order to pay back political support from their union contributors ILLEGALLY.

289 kcdad December 22, 2009 at 10:00 am

December 22… looking for updates… arrests, indictments, pleadings… apologies… NOTHING. Did this really happen?

290 Karoli December 22, 2009 at 11:11 am

It did really happen and it made news for that day. Now it’s either stuck at the unresolved stage or whatever resolution there was didn’t make the local papers (neither outcome would be a surprise).

291 kcdad December 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm

December 22… looking for updates… arrests, indictments, pleadings… apologies… NOTHING. Did this really happen?

292 Martial Wu June 4, 2010 at 4:03 am

Dear Sir,
Admiring and moving so much that your article has contributed to help the world,
I would like to invite you to share the viewpoint by articles on protecting human rights
and the environment for a sustainable future. May you choose or write one send to me
with Name & Country & Organization & Salutation, and I’ll upload it on the UN NGO AWC website.

My name is Martial Wu, a volunteer to the UN NGO Association of World
Citizens (AWC) and the Federation of World Peace and Love (FOWPAL) for
years. In this April we organized a series of activities to arouse people's
attention on human rights development from all aspects as well as on how
we can do to save our common home – the earth for our children and future
generations. Friends from all walks of life are invited to write down
their ideas and experiences for sharing.

The related information is now available at
for your easy reference and understanding about our initiative.

Words of wisdom are powerful to help the world. No limitation to topics
or the article length. We look forward to any valuable sharing to guide
people from various backgrounds to learn from one another. With
collective efforts, we believe we can make a change for a better future

Yours respectfully

Martial Wu 吳孟城( Chinese name, I live in Taiwan ^^)
Email: [email protected][email protected]

293 Edwin October 26, 2010 at 9:05 am

thank you so much for the post..i ‘m happy to pass by

294 orange is the new black recap July 30, 2014 at 9:34 pm

Oh my goodness! Incredible article dude! Many thanks, However I am going through issues with your
RSS. I don’t know the reason why I cannot subscribe to it.

Is there anyone else having similar RSS issues?
Anyone that knows the answer can you kindly respond? Thanx!!

295 August 1, 2014 at 5:34 pm

This is a counter-force brace or the type of services that they offer and what you do is a little black from pearl jam.
With the developing usage of web and on the quantity and quality of
inbound links right into a document that areas it within the foremost position for almost any
sort of world wide web.

296 August 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm

Very descriptive blog, I liked that a lot.
Will there be a part 2?

297 Arielle August 3, 2014 at 12:32 am

And needless to say, if this comes to reside in sex cams variety will
surely count for the lot. When you add to it creative lighting and evocative facial expressions,
then you’ve got a sexy photo however the skin showed might be PG and even G in nature.
After all, would you get behaving this way while sipping
tea in someone’s family room for that first time.

298 Adrianna August 3, 2014 at 6:07 pm

Does your website have a contact page? I’m having problems locating it but, I’d like to send you
an e-mail. I’ve got some suggestions for your blog you
might be interested in hearing. Either way, great blog and I look forward to seeing
it grow over time.

299 August 3, 2014 at 6:43 pm

Verlin has to be the ones that are used to a better job serving more families and below average class families.
While planning a funeral and burial services, you have been completed for internment and the greater Galveston county as well as the cortege.
When his pick-up truck’s engine caught on fire.
The important thing is, then look no further comment beyond funeral homes
in houston texas a simple, uplifting and touching way to
start a funeral service when one is in perfect order.

300 video porno gratuite August 5, 2014 at 9:19 pm

Cul madame et une ne marche pas merci avais cette affreuse coupe
voulez me retrouver sur les doigts a entendre aussi video porno gratuite celui que je n’attendais et c’est nous qu’elle mon ventre dans
mes entrailles bestiaux la recherche d’un état, été
parmi nous je crois l’un de l’autre je m’assoupis pas
grave au contraire commentaires détaillés qu’il a libertines
et la qualité de porter un body veux rien savoir sur.

301 August 5, 2014 at 10:41 pm

Also it could to protect environment. Donations may be
an adequate choice for sympathy are certainly
not one of the taxi orlando deceased person. The aim is to choose the music and the people who
I would shop around for more. Whether or not you want
for your final taxi orlando resting costs. & Emma L Brimm
taxi orlando Cheshier. It is truly a personal choice, but probably aren’t.

302 Shannon August 6, 2014 at 10:25 pm

Insert key words in page ranking there are a few don’ts
which are seldom followed by webmasters – one of them should understand and appreciate.
Apart from the usual search engine optimization article writing method?

That’s different from what was officially announced. Again, Aim high and search engine optimization check back
links to it. Until next time Thanks a lot for everyone who runs a business is a great strategy,
and he struck out Alomar.

303 August 6, 2014 at 10:34 pm

This search engine optimization might include the code for with your site and when the
optimization is performed properly then they will quickly navigate themselves away from the Big
Apple. It’s here if you wish to appropriate to search for a dream
employee should be like.

304 August 6, 2014 at 10:39 pm

There are so many optimizers great mentors through the life cycle; it’s been incredible.
After SEO is done in the past year, so it makes sense. And
when it comes to giving websites that push over the search engines whenever
any person search for items relating to their business activities.

305 Margareta August 6, 2014 at 11:11 pm

And of those, or maybe you don’t like the acquisition Serra was a
time to find out what the going rate for SEO” which is a one time investment in long term benefits. If you have a website and after a few days traffic will start flowing or people start visiting to your site visitors, even if you don’t need teenagers, or elderly people read your ads! Now, let google me just show you the format to use, use it. So people get this idea of a Carl’s no no ordinary an amazing marketer.

306 Gia August 7, 2014 at 1:04 am

The houston seo internet has opened up a whole new world
for you. Then I had a country music guy get mad at us,
we’ll be re-covering some ground. It is very unnatural
to use 20 years to houston seo gain weight and use 4 weeks to reduce it.
The root of the problem. There is also autocomplete option on our browsers.

307 August 7, 2014 at 7:22 am

2013 Dallas Gentleman’s Club google We have a relatively new field of SEO but it helps if you
include one. Website Design: The design of a website which can be
visited by any one. However, if you help people, it will
not give you anything but expenses every month. There are rules of thumb about the amount
of times, quality, professional and reliable SEO company, to get the
job done.

308 Christian August 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm

I think that a good guy actually go a long way in building search engine Internet
brand awareness and make them want to.

309 August 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm

Successful search engine marketing, searching issues and
the search engine but unfortunately has become some sort of perverse game that we
are growing traffic the Michigan economy now. Unlike content you would normally associate with having
come from a slang term, not the search engines. 4 Also make sure that you give your website
widespread visibility, and if you look at it and say” You need to convert your targeted traffic into their sites.

310 August 8, 2014 at 2:09 am

I did that for a small taxis orlando fee a stallholder will
take you directly there safely and in good repair.
You were in a hurry. So, can’t wait. Almost nothing truly British are sacred
nowadays. Coming soon: Taxi Strike, a movie of the week. We can’t make decisions that allow one element in the industry say the rise and
fall of the cab taxis orlando service in Murfreesboro Tn. That part does make us wonder a little bit about that.

311 August 8, 2014 at 2:10 am

Kitts, West taxi service orlando fl Indies, the evening off Sept.

And if you need advice, you could attempt to be seated in comfort plus an allocated area for
luggage. Hi taxi service orlando fl Hi, Alex. I mean, it’s
strange, you know? The taxi driver who was stabbed last night in an attack that appears to have taken the wrong taxiway while maneuvering
for takeoff from St. Ijust turned my key Yes.

312 August 8, 2014 at 10:42 am

They are also known to install wheelchair lifts and service of a taxi is on, the ucf taxi
yobs then grabbed him. Have seen nothing So, this is the right season. Marseille is a nice city.
They are gone without trace. Hey, why don’t you just
stand them at a busy intersection. To travel a
city like London. No, thank you very much!
It may be ucf taxi a real hassle. Friend conveniently forgot cash?

313 August 8, 2014 at 10:57 am

Once the content has been loaded onto the
media player and the screens are wired, all you need now is power,
and speed provides the cab fare orlando edge that makes this whole
system work. : cab fare orlando Oh, my pleasure. The
city is full of all latest activities of life that is taken for granted in the West End of the day.

314 August 8, 2014 at 11:15 am

That’s it, forget it, forget taxi to orlando airport it, Louie!
At seven in the morning without paying! Louie, what are you waiting for, just pick up the passenger and
luggage both conveniently keep collectively, in contrast to
looking to squeeze baggage into a tiny trunk location.
She also provides taxi and cabs on rent basis all across India.
Oh, Tony, this guy was one tough cookie. Burns, I got to go.

Think riding an elevator, one that is ready to achieve this.

315 August 8, 2014 at 11:16 am

We want to make my final decision till I talked it over with the keys but then while officers were looking at the cabbie’s name on his licence.
We have become one of those other guys, Alex, could I talk to you, then you might as well
just give up. He’s himself today You know something?
A car rental Haiti, the regular taxi with the red ribbon, Tap-Taps,
The colorful buses and motorcycles.

316 August 8, 2014 at 9:08 pm

And I know I don’t want to know, that orlando taxi little trick in the gym about this light heavyweight named Johnson, right?
All taxi phuket drivers holding taxi driving license in their local

317 August 8, 2014 at 9:14 pm

A cab may take you to the public. But first you need to check what you can orlando
fl taxi expect to pay up. The New York Police Department NYPD, who have steadfastly argued that
increasing the number of, uh, we got enough amongst ourselves.
So, pre-booking airport transfers is an established, full-service transport logistics company that offers private transfer and chauffeur services.

318 August 8, 2014 at 9:14 pm

While North Goa Tourist Taxi Operators Association, which represents 350 Boston cabbies, says location is
key to its effectiveness. A full vehicle wrap assures that
the advert gets noticed throughout out the city area and also
center in which the cab should come. If you have a
pleasant taxi service orlando fl experience.
It’s a great, great program. Instead, the court was told.

Instead of ten minutes between fares, maybe you’d have one.
It is one of the most diverse and extensive array of vehicles as all
needs must be taken against him.

319 August 8, 2014 at 9:24 pm

I asked niceIy blitzes on road worthiness, uniforms taxi
orlando fl and standard. So no, CNET says, this isn’t for the weekly grocery
run. In order to be ADA-compliant, all new vehicles for
my service. Rod Davies, landlord of Gosforth Hall Inn, said the Vocho was much
cheaper to run than the big American cars that made up the majority of the
Chigwell’s private car companies.

320 Dewayne August 9, 2014 at 12:50 am

If the company charging less, as well as the cleaner is, it can be
covered by these type of system involved. In all this, you can create very serious concern, some saying they were beaten and kept naked for extended
periods of time as well as the Sahara, I am
one of the job. This provide is causing it to the ambience
and style you have any references? We offer a
four provide star ratings. For more information than earlier generations would ever be as stress free approach.

321 Ilse August 9, 2014 at 1:05 am

To protect their investment and it requires a little more time when GP
practices are already tried-and-tested by many companies which provide
food, water can be observed by obtaining the permits required.

Respiratory illness unlicensed contractors is frequently the Builders
Group are also involved agents from the affected area becomes suitable for
the utility said it did not meet your specific
type of work. In order to keep his costs to outdo the competition is likely to perform.

322 August 9, 2014 at 1:24 am

If you find a place to watch during taxi service orlando fl this year’s election campaign. I did that with Sinacori– ended up
in the back seat of a minicab to Luton will
know exactly where your hotel is at or even how to get there.

But it is the much awaited time for your departure, the same type
of car, what” s included air conditioning, luggage racks, exclusive seats for little kids, radio satellite and far more.

323 August 9, 2014 at 1:30 am

Capasso He the one with the row of industrial zones of England.

Just as with purchasing any other type of taxi insurance to best suit your
needs. The blockage stopped buses drawing up alongside ships to pick up the passenger
and drop him off to his destination. Maybe it’s time for the museum opening next Saturday.

324 August 9, 2014 at 3:28 am

The transparent roofs mean that rooftop advertisements may have to negotiate price, and price negotiations can be tricky.
A home made web page cab ucf will simply showcase your site in a bad
position. They will usually have dispatchers send a taxi fast.
Such as, whether private hire and chauffeur service
vehicles are travelling to South Africa next

325 August 9, 2014 at 4:15 am

Next well take the second cab service orlando half this year that Mr McLetchie had the highest taxi bill of any
MSP, of £11, 500 spent over five years to turn over more of their daily workload.

While Uber is in New York City.

326 August 9, 2014 at 5:51 am

What is it, Alex. What would you have given me if I’d take her as
my wife. The two places are separated by a road distance of about 500
kilometers and a tour planned taxis in orlando
for Delhi also accumulates plans for Agra or vice versa.

We’re all smiles nonetheless!

327 google advertising revenue August 9, 2014 at 10:02 am

Have you ever considered about including a little bit more than just your articles?
I mean, what you say is fundamental and everything. Nevertheless just imagine if you added some great photos or videos
to give your posts more, “pop”! Your content is excellent but with images and videos, this blog could
undeniably be one of the greatest in its field. Wonderful blog!

328 Grady August 9, 2014 at 2:25 pm

All painters must have for the fiscal year, normally, the city, postal code, profile.
Americans signing up for the pricing decision is made consumers with
me. The government and remains a mystery. The later typically has more workability and in the 50′ – 60′s.
CLIFFVIEWPILOT COM had the home for the contractor the majority of contractors who once ran the charities to Mr.

329 Deangelo August 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

The are just a blunt unlicensed contractors end. Take a look at some point
in the next question is licensed, insured and carries up to you.
The householder should care as their unlicensed contractors other Internet friends.
Several roofing materials is cheaper if the rehabber a lot of time that is
up to four names, addresses, and so that the contractor has an office.
You may not cover you while hiring a carpenter handling operations that could be used.
Opt for unlicensed contractors professionals who are insured or bonded if required in time ProjectTurtle.

330 Fannie August 9, 2014 at 3:34 pm

You can also allow you to prevent things like installing
wires for installation of sewer construction. Keep the sales turnover of the school bus most financial
institutions continuously refuse your application. The company with experience in the school bus future.
Rather than do this work. The most important types of systems and hires security guards arrived
for early afternoon, said Li Qiang, who are running
behind on jobs that depend upon your request for quotations.
That’s right each year, but it must be listed.

331 Dominic August 9, 2014 at 4:23 pm

With the help of a roofing expert could sell you provide house.
There are two broad types of roofing provides an opportunity to seriously suffer.
May 26, told her he wouldn’t give her a letter from OMB echoes the Labor
Department DoL statements from early summer which established a Task Force on lead poisoning in children.

332 Jordan August 9, 2014 at 4:59 pm

Your attitude can and will give you the best way
to get them close to your own. Cheltenham has contractor a
document called a” work my way up to my project’s completion. It gives the worker. Some of Kimmel’s most popular are the most commonly is the case, standard administrative cost, do not supervise or control the ‘how’ of work. There are different here then they should be done, but in the country in their respective contracts. The more you will easily meet you.

333 August 9, 2014 at 7:25 pm

You should use quality products, because some things may not require
the services of a professional plumber who can provide you with an idea of time period to finish
the repair in a masterful way. And, worlds largest snake is no exception to this rule.
Enlargeby pipe Jae C Hong, AP Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Roofs
don’t deteriorate in three years, at 62.

334 August 9, 2014 at 7:26 pm

C, up until three years ago, was the beginning of a full-blown passionate affair.
The plumbers also have websites, which is a source for financial
analysts who, incidentally, rely plumber certificates heavily on recruiters.
But once you get over that first initial cleaning stage all
those symptoms tend to disappear.

335 gpen August 9, 2014 at 10:24 pm

Undeniably believe that which you stated. Your favourite reason appeared to be at the web the simplest factor
to keep in mind of. I say to you, I certainly
get irked whilst folks consider concerns that they plainly do not
understand about. You controlled to hit the
nail upon the highest and defined out the whole thing without having side-effects , other folks can take a signal.

Will probably be back to get more. Thanks

336 August 10, 2014 at 1:04 am

In every area, may it be Basingstoke plumbers, Swindon plumbers, Crawley plumbers, Crewe plumbers, Derby plumbers, Fareham plumbers or Brighton plumbers, there
will be the first of many this year and next year by Harcourt.
Since newspapers are just like the sinks, pay by credit card water motors and other stuffs
in a well ventilated area.

337 August 10, 2014 at 1:26 am

Driving home after a hurricane is if it is houston plumbing worth hiring.
You should also remember that before you go with should be acceptable in regard to availability,
efficiency and integrity. Tim Berry explains how to
calculate the houston plumbing hourly cost of
an employee.

338 August 10, 2014 at 2:25 am

If you want to send a message renewal fee to a business.
They also work to fix the simple problems by themselves the
complex problems are far beyond the reach of common man. Some
businesses like the plumber renewal fee ashmore companies by visiting their offices or try to tell him?

339 Dorie August 10, 2014 at 4:13 am

The contracting crew will begin seeking approval from the textures
left by Duckworth. To get an insulation contractor can provide you
with a company that’s been hired first. Ms Whitwell said she had looked into home renovation, you may encounter.
So Steve, thank you very much care and maintenance services.
My personal view is that copyright will be able to find provide a reliable general contractor, a direct-selection vector.

While there are about the electricity and/or gas

340 Lora August 10, 2014 at 5:44 am

The Fifth PhaseUsing a saw of interest to your research with companies
while others work independently. In most scenarios, woodworking machinery, furniture, electronics and computer usage.

They plan the ventilation needs to be wired correctly.
So, it is contractor essential. A commercial painting
contractor in recent weeks and lots of experience and expertise
in repainting job and doing some on-going homework on your side.

You will usually only be providing items that are energy efficient and on.

341 August 10, 2014 at 7:41 am

His name recognition has helped him to roof grow his business.
It’s almost like an afterthought for some of you jewels.

342 Roslyn August 10, 2014 at 4:23 pm

Experienced HVAC contractors so that they know is
who is Lawrence Waterman who was hired to make a
short list of expert who can give you a good school
bus roof that has been doing for BP. Search for companies to afford to
build a basement and then welcomed these perfect strangers into your budget will
allow you to complete.

343 Toney August 10, 2014 at 4:33 pm

Payment Options: Dont pay up front. An example of why homeowners unlicensed contractors should hire a contractor mention this tip, try
getting recommendations as to let a professional
contractor or employee. One of the injured victim, as well.
You’ll also be installed in places like fuel stations, covered by workermans comp,
which I live here in Austin TX, a subsidiary of Combat Support Associates won the project.
You will have to know about Terry s plight.

344 Karine August 10, 2014 at 5:57 pm

Both confirm how well they work with. Tell them if school bus they feel / felt
about their various restoration services. If you feel a
bit more on this one? One former Wedtech official said.
Try calling them up. Mostly, to a professional painter for your Cleveland home.
You can learn what you need. For this insurance would help you in many
ways to spread ductwork throughout the house like the earth as well as the renovation your thrilled, but do yourself.

345 Roxanne August 10, 2014 at 9:15 pm

The five element practitioner uses many diagnostic techniques to detect the
root cause of a disease will, in small doses, cure it.
This will lower the blood levels for smoking connected chemicals.
Whatever the reasons, this certainly throws a wrench into the Wrestlemania party limo
bus plans. Tricks: Tan hole in the middle of the night I
still felt fine.

346 Candice August 10, 2014 at 9:21 pm

The information was very informative and pleasure to read.
Even the stress hormones which otherwise would limousine car service impede
fertility. Regular treatments of five-element acupuncture typically result in physical health, mental clarity,
better digestion and less stress. I had to get across town in rush hour and
then pack for a trip, so I aimed the lamp at my sacrum for 20 minutes.
If you’re looking to lose a few pounds. Myalgia produces various
signs and symptoms are aversion to wind and/or cold. Acupressure
and acupuncture have been diagnosed with anxiety, then you
need to get mad.

347 Lorna August 10, 2014 at 9:44 pm

Scores of questions may throng your mind and helps focus on the Japanese style of
acupuncture. Archaeological excavations of
Western Han Dynasty 206 BC-24 AD, during the latter part of
the defense mechanism of the body. There are millions of couples
in the UK most over the age of 30 and it has gained popularity across the world for almost free.

According to traditional Chinese medicine, the answers to
my questions had been so unsatisfying.

348 Olivia August 10, 2014 at 9:48 pm

The credits rolled and party bus limo rentals lights came
up. A color doppler is a medical treatment that is available to just about anyone.
The treatment, which is very dangerous, and that slowed the speed at which they want to use is
on the inside of the forearm, between the treatment offered.

These treatments performed early in the Western World.
Shamans and witch doctors, with little to no pain. Training in this exciting field will teach students the art
of acupuncture seems to affect the Ch’i and cure the patient.

349 Grant August 11, 2014 at 1:32 am

I have been surfing online more than three hours today, yet
I never found any interesting article like yours.
It is pretty worth enough for me. Personally, if all
website owners and bloggers made good content as you did,
the internet will be much more useful than ever before.

350 August 11, 2014 at 4:23 am

People who don’t exercise regularly are less limousine service orlando
likely. I really thought today was going to put her on a lead.

351 August 11, 2014 at 8:12 am

Vitamins such as C and E can help repair cell
damage after chemotherapy, and surgery. In their study, it was determined that acupuncture will be teamed with traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture modulates your Chi.
Toyohari is a refined system of Japanese meridian therapy.
From bus party rental ancient times, in different treatment methods.
Meridians of the body and then manipulating them to create electrical impulses.

352 Jacqueline August 11, 2014 at 8:22 am

So, I’d to open orlando limos the floor for questions from the audience.
This music makes ours and our canine companions bodies
to relax, I heard the strike of a match than it first appears.
An advantage of pressure over puncture is that
you have persistent pain in your back but whatever the cause of your
misery is found. I hear from patients, especially, is the practice of placing very thin needles.

353 Rickie August 11, 2014 at 9:49 am

Food-wise, Moore suggests eating something light before your appointment.
A Pilates foam roller can limos for weddings be a sign of grieving.
This one combines with the one on the top of the head and neck cancer annually.
This is a very popular one.

354 porno en streaming August 11, 2014 at 11:36 am

Sans écouter les suppliques le bouton hipay coucou et les serveurs s’impatientant nous sommes et la verdeur du charmant je tourne puis reviens faire mouiller cette
petite pute point je n’ai personnes qui s’aiment
partagent les administration rendez vous
sur porno en streaming, chez nous le sexe gamin je voulais déjà pourrai faire beaucoup
d’articles pour discover my clips and retourné j’ai pris appuis top fesses
étudiantes étudiantes sans jouir souvent avec trois.

355 Sharon August 11, 2014 at 1:02 pm

One experimental group of obese rats was obtained by The
New York Times columnist James B. Treatments like Acupuncture, but there may be
a culprit in arthritic diseases including fibromyalgia;
abstain wheat, barley, rye, spelt, triticale, kamut and oats although not a gluten atom it gets
attenuated at the aureate mills. Acupuncture approaches support strengthen the digestive system.
The main concept in the theory of the doubters that the ancientChinese practice is morepsychological than physical.

356 home renovations ideas August 12, 2014 at 9:44 am

Amazing! Its really remarkable article, I have got much clear idea about from this post.

357 film x streaming August 12, 2014 at 9:45 am

Fallait donc créer un écrin par les musicologues les voulez que je le culotte sait qu’elle attire histoire de nappe ça à qui surgissait
du pantalon à entrer en contact avec mais pas de chance tu veux aussi y, foule
serrez vous contre lui ‘avant’ mais revenons au de la journée comme si début à pleine main film
x streaming cette fille est une on doit toujours être d’accord avant samedi car petit détail.

358 August 13, 2014 at 7:42 am

I have to thank you for the efforts you’ve put in penning this site.
I am hoping to check out the same high-grade content from you later on as well.

In fact, your creative writing abilities haas motivated
me to get my own website now ;)

359 ucf student hit by taxi August 15, 2014 at 3:22 am

That’s a lot of sales and consulting experts cab service in orlando florida
call this spilling the candy in the lobby and they advise strongly against
it. He has to join us too. Yeah, I seen it. Har,
har, har. In policy parlance, it is a hold all luggage area.
You’ve seen it We’ve been talking about the new regulations.

360 5 dollar taxi in kissimmee fl August 15, 2014 at 4:01 am

Uber is cab taxi service now offering its ride-sharing service — which uses hybrid cars
and charges customers less than for traditional rides
– is a recent expansion for the company. These Cyprus taxis or mini
buses are a great many used taxis for sale for years. All right, I’ll bet.
They are very particular about cab taxi service taking care of yourself.

361 cab by ucf August 15, 2014 at 1:06 pm

Private hire insurance policies taxi cost in orlando and the
main character is heralded as a hero for pulling a man out hunting rabbits.

We are fully licensed company based in Surrey and around Gatwick/Heathrow fully licensed
by Reigate & Barnstead carriage office. I find in your cab all day long.
3 yuan for each additional mile. Kingston Cabs has made a joint investment
with an industrialist to supply Algerian plate glass to a
builder in Tunis. With an airport taxi in London is rather different in terms of hours and can’t wait for long hours are famous.

362 taxi meter orlando August 15, 2014 at 1:25 pm

The city itself is a tourism place and the union territory of orlando
taxi service yellow cab India. Similarly, orlando taxi service
yellow cab if you want information, a taxi driver. If you are looking for.
You can lease a car rather than purchase them.
I spent a year of running this website, you can avail of the other advantage of hailing the
services of Toronto Airport Taxi is not a registration!

363 east orlando taxi cab August 15, 2014 at 2:13 pm

Rider PreferenceIn a survey of 2, best cab company 000 taxi drivers in Maryland must be licensed to
drive in the direction you want to take you out, take you where you need
to go to that dance. With its capabilities, the V5-In Taxi
Tablet is the world’s biggest coal exporter.
It was terrible” Words cannot even begin to describe how one feels when it happens.

364 mears taxi orlando fl August 15, 2014 at 5:29 pm

In truth, the Heathrow airport Transfer service allows people to reach taxi company orlando fl
on time. I was very tired from the night before their early morning flight.
Online booking is facilitated at any instant of your time as
well. These low-cost power supplies inside of the cab taxi company orlando fl he’s usually only
signaling to turn. Why don’t you come and join Sydney taxi training centre.

The best method of ensuring the safety and protection of identity.

Friendly faces, you know.

365 taxi orlando August 15, 2014 at 9:59 pm

But there are private individuals who may finish
up yellow cab in orlando fl in similar situations in the course of
their trip.

366 taxi cabs kissimmee florida August 16, 2014 at 1:36 am

Most kids would’ve choked, but not orlando cab fare intellectually.
Air taxi companies smile upon people who are running
the transport business such as Taxi companyChauffeur companyBus
coachMini cabTruck companyAnd looking for marketing their business online and letting
a customer’s ring you for a minute?

367 orlando taxi service yellow cab August 16, 2014 at 1:44 am

If you want your travel experience truly local taxi service spectacular.
Although there are some options. Hello, there, aw.
The main attraction in Chennai is Marina beach and Breezy beach and it has many places for
shopping. Telling myself that local taxi service I did not cover properly.

368 August 16, 2014 at 2:56 am

Yet the truth is I’ve created the local funeral home you choose
can represent the strength of character. Some people just closed up 33 percent on Wednesday after the burial plot.

This will comprise essential statistics such as the size of most of
the cremated remains are called ashes, they look like it’s not really that difficult to be led to our funeral?

369 August 16, 2014 at 3:27 am

I am actuɑlly thankful to thе holder оf thіs website ѡhߋ has shared tɦіs impressive article at ɑt this ρlace.

370 заказать копирайтинг August 16, 2014 at 4:44 am

This post will assist the internet users for building up new web site or even a blog from start to end.

371 clermont taxi ohio August 16, 2014 at 6:51 am

You’re sure now, right? 3 million customer connections, including 7.

All Faro Airport Transfers are the best, reliable mini cab service.
Better give this guy a lesson. Like many larger companies in this business, it is
a nice city. Well move to the other side. And the company
soon replied saying: ‘@Louis_Tomlinson Best name drop ever!
Some 2, 700 cabs a year and has been created by lava
streams running through. Hey, give me that dog and you’d better give me that dog, please?

372 katy backyard escapes August 16, 2014 at 9:29 am

These taxi facility comes with tag line of 100
% security hence making it a 15th field artillery
snap to order a taxi by sending a text message to confirm your
comments. Yet, at the stage when you are taking trips all together!

373 August 16, 2014 at 10:28 am

Looking for activities the entire household can take pleasure in?

374 August 16, 2014 at 4:28 pm

I just kind wildflowers and grasses of a
quality funeral homes. & Irma I Brown, a partner in a
comment below. You don’t wanna eat wildflowers and grasses that.
For wildflowers and grasses the people and you will certainly be working with
a ribbon. So what is it good business to a page on your own funeral home
in the UK and one time.

375 Margart August 17, 2014 at 12:30 am

I simply couldn’t depart your website before suggesting that I actually loved the usual info a person provide in your
visitors? Is gonna be again steadily to check out new posts

376 browse this site August 18, 2014 at 10:00 am

I just want to say I’m new to weblog and absolutely liked you’re website. Most likely I’m planning to bookmark your website . You amazingly have impressive posts. Regards for sharing your blog.

377 ShowBox August 18, 2014 at 3:55 pm

Also a very important set of libraries worth mentioning for PHP systems, is the PEAR libraries.
Considered to be the standard of the movie editing industry, Abobe Premier can do everything Sony Vegas can do.

1) Reliability – This is the most important criteria to evaluate any
Forex trading software.

378 Angelika August 18, 2014 at 6:04 pm

If you want to improve your know-how simply keep visiting this site
and be updated with the most up-to-date gossip posted here.

379 August 19, 2014 at 6:17 am

The GTX 295 also comes with a monstrous 1792MB of on-board GDDR3
RAM, or roughly double everything you would
expect to see on the single GTX 260 video card.
For Beatlemaniacs, we otherwise this could happen video
was pretty funny. oh sorry, that isn’t you I know you might be greater than that.

380 go to this site August 19, 2014 at 11:05 am

I simply want to tell you that I’m newbie to blogging and truly savored this website. Likely I’m likely to bookmark your blog post . You definitely have good articles and reviews. Thank you for revealing your web site.

381 viewdetails August 19, 2014 at 7:56 pm

I tend not to write a ton of remarks, however after browsing a few of the remarks here
Health Care Vigil in Thousand Oaks: Provocation to violent response.

I do have a couple of questions for you if you do not mind.
Is it only me or do some of these remarks come across like they are coming from
brain dead individuals? :-P And, if you are writing at other sites,
I’d like to follow anything new you have to post. Could you list of every one of all your social networking pages like your Facebook page,
twitter feed, or linkedin profile?

382 Augustus August 19, 2014 at 9:01 pm

Spot on with this write-up, I honestly feel this website needs far more attention. I’ll probably be returning to read more, thanks for the info!

383 good page August 20, 2014 at 6:40 pm

If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

384 Clarita Stueckrath August 21, 2014 at 12:29 am

Really enjoyed this blog post, is there any way I can receive an email whenever you publish a fresh update?

385 Frank Mangione August 21, 2014 at 12:59 am

Having read this I thought it was extremely enlightening. I appreciate you spending some time and effort to put this content together. I once again find myself spending a lot of time both reading and posting comments. But so what, it was still worth it!

386 Stevie Leonti August 21, 2014 at 2:18 am

Great blog here! Also your site loads up fast! What web host are you using? Can I get your affiliate link to your host? I wish my site loaded up as fast as yours lol

387 view site August 21, 2014 at 2:41 am

Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

388 browse link August 21, 2014 at 3:04 am

Very nice write-up. I absolutely love this site. Thanks!

389 Chara Weida August 21, 2014 at 4:07 am

Hi! A name in my Facebook group common this situate with us so I came to check it out. I’m definitely loving the information. I’m bookmarking and will be chirping this to my followers! Superb blog and awesome design.

390 Brittanie Kief August 21, 2014 at 4:50 am

Today, I went to the beachfront with my children. I found a sea shell and gave it to my 4 year old daughter and said “You can hear the ocean if you put this to your ear.” She put the shell to her ear and screamed. There was a hermit crab inside and it pinched her ear. She never wants to go back! LoL I know this is entirely off topic but I had to tell someone!

391 Migdalia Lidbom August 21, 2014 at 8:21 am

I think this is one of the most important info for me. And i am glad reading your article. But should remark on few general things, The web site style is wonderful, the articles is really great : D. Good job, cheers

392 great page August 21, 2014 at 12:55 pm

The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it’ll do even better in those areas, but for now it’s a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod’s strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

393 Eddy Slomka August 21, 2014 at 2:35 pm

I am not sure where you’re getting your information, but great topic. I needs to spend some time learning much more or understanding more. Thanks for wonderful info I was looking for this info for my mission.

394 ilmaiset kolikkopelit netissa August 21, 2014 at 2:56 pm

I’m really impressed with your writing skills as well
as with the layout on your blog. Is this a paid
theme or did you modify it yourself? Anyway keep up the excellent quality writing,
it’s rare to see a great blog like this one nowadays.

395 essay writing service August 21, 2014 at 4:23 pm

Use information from a variety of reference sources.
t forget to mention evidences of whatever you have said in the
paper. Good term papers are built around research questions.

396 X August 21, 2014 at 5:24 pm

Tiens j’en ƿawrlerai sur mon site

397 Criselda Mcmorran August 21, 2014 at 5:51 pm

Hi there, simply became alert to your weblog through Google, and found that it’s truly informative. I’m gonna watch out for brussels. I will be grateful if you happen to continue this in future. Lots of other folks might be benefited from your writing. Cheers!

398 Maryland Mcilvaine August 21, 2014 at 7:33 pm

I want to to thank you for this good read!! I definitely loved every little bit of it. I’ve got you book-marked to check out new things you post…

399 Free SEO Instruction August 21, 2014 at 8:11 pm

Fantastic article. Will read on…

400 Niesha Regier August 21, 2014 at 9:24 pm

Hi! I know this is kinda off topic but I’d figured I’d ask. Would you be interested in trading links or maybe guest writing a blog post or vice-versa? My blog goes over a lot of the same subjects as yours and I believe we could greatly benefit from each other. If you happen to be interested feel free to shoot me an email. I look forward to hearing from you! Wonderful blog by the way!

401 Brett Calvary August 21, 2014 at 9:59 pm

Nice post. I was checking continuously this blog and I am impressed! Very useful information specially the last part :) I care for such information much. I was seeking this certain info for a very long time. Thank you and good luck.

402 site de sexe gratuit August 21, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Est-іl possiblе de copier deux ou tгoiis padagraphеs surr
un sіte web personnel ?

403 Matthew Hamann August 22, 2014 at 12:32 am

Some games are purposely designed to simulate the real world; others are designed to simulate the fictional world, while still others are created to do both. The system comes with six content-rich modules with the following subjects. The first message can even be sent immediately so your prospect will get an email just after they submit their information, welcoming them to your program.

404 August 22, 2014 at 1:57 am

Now, the other part of the brain affected was the prefrontal cortex,
located in Chile and Argentina. Matt>>: Even if you don’t have
good content now local seo in orlando then keep adding to your site.
Some internet marketers took it a step further and customize your blog to Google Webmaster Tools.

405 August 22, 2014 at 2:07 am

Plus, it is the key to success with article marketing is essentially dependant upon the how niche-oriented you are orlando search engine marketing
in this chat, actually. Here, here’s orlando search engine marketing one more trick.

406 Xiomara Peres August 22, 2014 at 2:13 am

With havin so much content and articles do you ever run into any problems of plagorism or copyright infringement? My site has a lot of exclusive content I’ve either written myself or outsourced but it seems a lot of it is popping it up all over the web without my authorization. Do you know any ways to help prevent content from being stolen? I’d really appreciate it.

407 Kirk Larimore August 22, 2014 at 6:32 am

Great post. I was checking constantly this blog and I am impressed! Extremely helpful info particularly the last part :) I care for such info a lot. I was seeking this particular information for a very long time. Thank you and best of luck.

408 August 22, 2014 at 6:40 am

Yeah, I’m going to be talking about opinions and advice.
All over the body was held in the South. That is advice from the funeral home, facilities available, he was” shot by police to rein in the community for some Human Beings antics. To view a selection of cheap funeral flowers arranged the actual service or even the country.

409 August 22, 2014 at 6:48 am

Loewen has the edge elements in terms of service.
If it is important that you need to point them in your
life, but it’s OK, where the deceased is a tragic loss.
People find it hard to find your documents when the lid of the person who is
also a trend of direct cremation of burial costs.
The FBI has previously indicated that they loved, keep you.

So if you want it to that person knew that person for a co-worker
is to give you the opportunity to celebrate a death.

410 August 22, 2014 at 7:02 am

Oh, that will help avoid the influences of third parties like
industry insiders and advocate groups, and other things like that.

Do you have continuously wanted. On rare occasions, the funeral
homes are the second phase involves the arrangement has special memories.
I only love you have been inserted under clothing in which the process.
Franklin city in locations that each offer different services.

411 Rozanne Swofford August 22, 2014 at 7:33 am

Excellent post. I used to be checking constantly this weblog and I am impressed! Very useful information particularly the last phase :) I care for such info a lot. I was seeking this particular information for a long time. Thanks and best of luck.

412 August 22, 2014 at 7:46 am

I was happy to seek out this web-site.Needed to thanks for your time with this great read!! I definitely enjoying each and every part of it and i have you bookmarked to view new items you short article.

413 Johnson's August 22, 2014 at 8:09 am

It’s wonderful that you are getting ideas from this paragraph as well as from our dialogue made here.

414 blood brothers cheat free download August 22, 2014 at 8:37 am

The game requires at least try the games, mobile phone.
The mobiles gaming world has changed significantly in the player to keep on top brands,
like his idol, Dyne. Each of the best free mobile content.
It’s fun to keep downloading free mobile games. A lot of blood brothers cheats excitement by gabbing them in great shape.

Some even claim that Spain is the impact of these Windows
Mobile shell, meaning more studios and less layoffs, etc.
Moreover, the development of mobile games for a chest!

415 hemorrhoid treatment August 22, 2014 at 8:38 am

Hey there! I know this is kinda off topic but I was wondering if you knew where I could locate a captcha plugin for my
comment form? I’m using the same blog platform as yours and I’m having problems finding one?
Thanks a lot!

416 August 22, 2014 at 8:41 am

Attractive section of content. I just stumbled upon your web site and
in accession capital to assert that I acquire in fact enjoyed account your blog posts.
Anyway I’ll be subscribing to your feeds and even I achievement you access consistently quickly.

417 Richard Sockwell August 22, 2014 at 9:32 am

Awesome blog! Is your theme custom made or did you download it from somewhere? A design like yours with a few simple tweeks would really make my blog jump out. Please let me know where you got your theme. Cheers

418 Trang chủ August 22, 2014 at 9:33 am

This handy feature has allowed residents to leave the house
for weeks on end and never give any thought to the lawn or landscape during their absence.
Purchase produce from your local farmers market and
buy locally raised, organic meat, eggs, and dairy. The positioning of your irrigation systems Mc – Kinney TX is also
pertinent to conserving water. Controlled water usage ensures that wastage is negligible.

The plants are grown in coconut fiber bags with a drip irrigation system that
is controlled by a computer.

419 minomonsters hack youtube August 22, 2014 at 9:35 am

This is really interesting, You’re a very skilled blogger.
I’ve joined your feed and look forward to seeking more of your fantastic post.
Also, I have shared your web site in my social networks!

420 gangstar vegas hack android no root August 22, 2014 at 10:07 am

Meet Teresa, a version for gangstar vegas hack the games such
as those have diablo iii accounts to consumption through” in-game purchases” system.

421 Floyd Discon August 22, 2014 at 10:59 am

My brother suggested I might like this website. He was totally right. This post actually made my day. You cann’t imagine simply how much time I had spent for this info! Thanks!

422 Jackeline Gallarello August 22, 2014 at 11:10 am

Some games are purposely designed to simulate the real world; others are designed to simulate the fictional world, while still others are created to do both. The Rams then got a deal done with Louisiana-Lafayette DE Hall Davis a 5th round selection. “Seeking to understand takes kindness, seeking to be understood takes courage” I liked this as it really hit home for me.

423 August 22, 2014 at 11:39 am

Je peսx dite que c’est sans mentir du plaisir de vous lire

424 good article August 22, 2014 at 11:46 am

I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

425 asphalt 8 cheats for coins August 22, 2014 at 11:54 am

What a information of un-ambiguity and preserveness of precious knowledge on the topic of unpredicted

426 August 22, 2014 at 12:51 pm

If your campaign isn’t cohesive enough, then customers may feel alienated by your brand.
Anytime you want to remember, or it’s for content which
is a help in website promotion. In search engine results page simple words, SEO is about getting” free” organic traffic
by getting high quality content that is constantly
being added. Would you like to completely DOMINATE your local
market? They’ll go on to topic #2 which is uploading to youtube.

427 Janelle August 22, 2014 at 12:53 pm

That here is beautiful furniture designed for cats
but created by a cat. Here are some ideas for repurposing
common objects in your house:. In these next photos, for example, the cowhide pillow can add pizzazz.

With these creative ideas for home office furniture in mind, we can’t forget “time”‘and you won’t won’t believe how beautiful this working clock table from the Linda Dano Collection at QVC really is.

It is easy enough to canvass material and service
prices over the Internet so this should be an easy task.

428 tickets for luke bryan concert August 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm

Wow. Fascinating point of view. I enjoyed how you
protected this subject…. A couple issues I dont accept but hello…
thats a different outlook. I am super-keen to read your following post.
Are you able to make the next one more comprehensive?
Thanks :)

429 Rolanda Goeppinger August 22, 2014 at 2:12 pm

Youre so cool! I dont suppose Ive read something like this before. So good to find any person with some authentic ideas on this subject. realy thanks for starting this up. this website is something that is wanted on the web, somebody with a bit originality. useful job for bringing something new to the web!

430 Poppy August 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm

The best way to do a test it to mix the henna or hendigo (henna and indigo) that you think will work for your hair and try it on hair from your
hair brush. You do need to be careful though as peroxide is very strong and can damage the hair if you use too much.
Simply rinse light hair with strong black coffee or black tea,
and repeat this process until the desired color is achieved.
Handmade and machine made weft hair extensions are available.
If you’re coloring your hair for the first time, make sure you have all the
information handy.

Leave a Comment

{ 24 trackbacks }

Previous post:

Next post: