Health Care Vigil in Thousand Oaks: Provocation to violent response

by Karoli on September 3, 2009 · 317 comments

Yes, I was at the health care vigil tonight in Thousand Oaks. Yes, I saw what happened, though it was from across a very large street. I can’t tell you who said what to who, but I will tell you what the mood was, what I saw, who instigated things, and what I photographed.

What I won’t do: I won’t publish the pictures I took of the confrontation. I didn’t capture anything other than the people in various states of verbal confrontation, and I have turned those over to the police. Because they are investigating, I won’t compromise it by publishing those pictures unless and until they give me permission. I will, however, publish my other photos which will include some taken before this incident occurred.

There were around 150 supporters of health care reform present on the northeast corner of Lynn Road and Hillcrest in Thousand Oaks. I was one of them. To get to that corner, we had to park in the Oaks Mall parking lot, walk to the light, cross a small thruway and then cross Hillcrest, which is a very large street.[photo here looking across to those opposed, posted in real time before the incident].

In order to get from the parking lot to the vigil, we were required to walk through the group of people opposed to health care reform. As you can see in the photo, they were originally staged right before the crosswalk to the thruway, so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.

The mood on our side of the street was passionate, happy, and dedicated. There were no violent words spoken. For the most part, we were supported loudly by passers-by, who honked their horns and waved their support. When someone passed by who disagreed, we actually had conversations with them while they waited for the light.

To be clear here: There were no threats, no dark moods, and there was no mob. I repeat, there was no mob. We were peaceful people holding candles and signs.

One petite woman was also handing out single payer flyers. She was passionate about it, but not rude, not mean, always smiled, and simply offered the flyer. At some point, she crossed back over (she may have run out of her flyer supply. I don’t know for sure. But she was not in any way confrontational.)

All of a sudden, I saw a very tall man in an orange shirt (yes, he is in the photo I linked you to) confront her, verbally at first. Her back was to the thruway, and he was shooing her, approaching her, speaking to her in a very aggressive fashion (observation from body language only) and waving his arms in a shooing motion. With each step she took back, he took one forward, shooing her more. From where I was, it appeared as though he were telling her to get on her own side of the street, and backing it up with a very clear physical threat. Even from where I stood, it chilled me. I pointed it out to others and called out for anyone with a video camera to aim it over there. (I had a small Nikon cam with me that does video, but it would have been useless in that light.)

Ultimately, she did cross the street and come back over to our side.

Several minutes later, there was another altercation. My best recollection is that this man saw what happened to the woman and reacted to it. I cannot say with certainty where he was when he saw it — he may have arrived and was navigating his way through that group, or he may have crossed the street to defend her. He was confronted by the same man. I could tell from where I was that the man was belligerent, angry, and confrontational.

The man in the orange shirt hit the pro-reform guy (I’m going to call him PR Guy just to keep the players straight). Hard. (tweeted in real time) He punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and into that thruway. As you can see from the photo, cars drive straight through that without stopping. The pro-reform guy could have been run over. He got up, tried to get back up on the curb, but Orange Shirt guy was in his face. Finger in his face, PR Guy standing, steps up to the curb, and there’s a scuffle. Orange shirt seemed to have PR Guy in a hold, but again, I was across the street, so won’t state that as absolute fact. Next thing I see is PR Guy’s hat being tossed into the street, both yelling at one another, then Orange shirt walks away, PR Guy picks up hat and crosses to our side.

When he gets to our side, he tells a story in one sentence: “He punched me hard, straight in the face, so I bit his finger off.”

Honestly, I thought he was exaggerating. I guess he wasn’t.

I’ve given this report to the police along with my photos. I am not heralding anyone as a hero here. I certainly do not celebrate the idea of anyone biting anyone else, no matter what the reason. However, there is no question that Orange Shirt guy was aching to fight, was willing to pick a fight, and certainly didn’t care who he fought with. He chose people who were shorter than he, and he used his voice, his body, his body language and his height to intimidate them.

Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy or worse yet, reports characterizing him as a senior citizen. He was aggressive and ready to mix it up.

I’ll tell you more about the other hour and 15 minutes of peace, wonderful people, and stories in another post. This one is for the benefit of those who might want to hear a different side of what is sure to hit the air as a one-sided story of liberals gone wild. There were no liberals gone wild, nor were there hordes of conservatives behaving badly. There were 9 or 10 people on one corner, 150-200 on the other, and two men who, regardless of their politics, behaved quite badly.

Update: LA Times has it a bit wrong. So does KTLA.

Update: KTLA and LATimes have updated their stories.

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  • Susan Hogarth

    Quick, serious question: how would sharing your photographs 'compromise' an investigation? Aren't many eyes better than a few?

  • Karoli

    It could be argued that they should have confiscated my camera on the
    scene. They didn't, because I promised them I'd send them the photos.
    Had they confiscated it, we wouldn't see those photos (or my camera)
    back for a very long time. I figure it's a fair trade.

  • Susan Hogarth

    Thanks for the quick reply. It doesn't really answer my question, though, as far as I can tell. I can see why you might want to share with the police (not my choice but that's another discussion), but I don't see how that relates to -not- sharing with other people – people who have, by the way, not threatened to confiscate your camera. Did the police actually say they might do that, or were you just saying they might reasonably have done so?

  • Susan Hogarth

    Also, I have to make a quick point here. I think it's good you realize that evidence taken by cops disappears for 'a very long time', even in cases (such as digital images) where such confiscation really only need be very brief (assuming, of course, that you grant it be 'needed' at all, but as I said – different discussion).

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  • Ralf White

    I sincerly wish trhe news reports retold the story with the same responsibility you do, Karoli. As a conservative, I'm here to tell you that you're a great American.

    May we all find our way through these times with wisdom and a lot less anger.

  • biker02


  • Ravan Asteris

    Wow! You weren't there, so how the hell do you get off with your remark?

  • Ravan Asteris

    A big, belligerent guy pushes people around, punches a guy, knocking him into traffic, and then whines that he is a senior citizen when he shoves his finger into his victims face and it gets bitten off. What a man… not.

  • DLew


    Why did the Pro-Obamacare women with the flyers feel the need to “get cute” and engage the opposite side?

    I don't encourage violence anywhere, but I'm sure you'd all agree that the spark that ignited the situation was her need to engage her opposition.

  • John Henry Eden

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood from broken noses and severed fingers.

  • BWHudd

    So…PR Guy sees a belligerent person shooing paper flyer woman away and decides to take matters into his own hands. I see more than one person aching for a fight, willing to pick a fight, and certainly not caring who he fought with.
    Based on this account, PR Guy and Old Orange Shirt were both wrong. Yet both sides are defending their guys. Anyone defending either of these guys, based on this report, is sick and twisted.

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  • Tom_C

    Gee, no matter how hard you try to spin it, the moveon guy was crazy, violent, out of control. He went across the street to pick a fight.

    Even this account can't cover-up that fact.

  • candor7

    I guess the senior citizen in the Orange shirt didn't hit the idiot hard enough. Permits are issued by municiple authorities. Neither the woman or the cannibal belonged on that side of the street, and they broke the law doing when they crossed their protest line. Usually there are enough police to enforce separation but here there was not.

    And i t will be gettinng worse before we get rid of Obama.America does not want a leftist national socialist government.

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  • CJinPA

    I am a Republican who is opposed to the health care overhaul, and I’ve never read this blog before, but I sense this is an accurate account.

    A protester so filled with righteousness they are driven to rage at the sounds of an opposing view. The very concept that a decent person could have an opposing view befuddles them. So they can’t comprehend having the patience for actual discourse, even a heated exchange of words. I’ve seen liberals do it too, on this and other issues. He had to “shoo” the first woman, then found an excuse to relieve his rage on the man.

    Thanks for providing perspective: that the vast majority on both sides were civil. Most accounts will gloss over that.

  • Rocks

    Actually thanks for this report but I have to ask. “so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.” of “9 or 10 people”? Really? If the orange shirted man was aggressive and belligerent fine but it's a little silly to suggest you can't avoid a small group of people on a street corner.

  • N

    Perhaps you should call him the “MT” guy instead… for “Mike Tyson”.

    He didn't just 'bite' the guy, he 'BIT HIS FINGER OFF'.

    That is an extremely SICK response.

  • jim6058

    Thank you for your valient attempt to be objective. I sincerely mean that.

    I am on the Conservative side of this argument and I lament the fact that such loss of control plays into the game of those who would steal your rights. This is NOT about healthcare. It is NOT about insurance coverage. This IS about control. Control that you had and you are surrendering.

  • N

    Dear CJinPA
    “… I am a Republican”

    Drop the pretense. It is not polite to lie.

    “… A protester so filled with righteousness they are driven to rage at the sounds of an opposing view…”

    The reported facts do not support this view. There is no information regarding if this person was full of 'righteousness'.

    “…The very concept that a decent person could have an opposing view befuddles them…”

    You are painting in very broad strokes here.

    People who bite of fingers in first fights are NOT decent people by the way.

    “…So they can’t comprehend having the patience for actual discourse, even a heated exchange of words…”

    Enough with the defamation already

    “…He had to “shoo” the first woman…”

    The woman was on the wrong side of the street. Each group of protesters is supposed to stay on their side of the street. Usually there are police to ensure that the folks stay on the right side. Were they sleeping today?

    “…then found an excuse to relieve his rage on the man.”

    Um, the person who 'relieved his rage' was the person who did the biting.

  • Texmom

    I am against the current health care plan, but want the true story on these events, which is hard to get. Good for you in trying to tell the story honestly. Why can't the media be more like you?

  • N

    Geez, I finally looked at your picture. There are ONLY NINE PEOPLE in that group.

    You are trying to say that you could not reasonably WALK AROUND a group that small ?!?

    That is absurd… Completely, totally, absolutely absurd!!!

  • willieu

    “…or he may have crossed the street to defend her..”

    - that will be a HUGE factor in preeminent lawsuit.Wwe'll have to wait for the real facts to come out. I suppose the “biter” will be found at fault.

    (good thing 'Orange Short' guy didn't have to wait in line for medical attention, he would have lost his pinkie).

  • tryingtobeobjective

    Have to agree with DLew's post below. What was the point in anyone crossing over what looks like a 6-lane road just to antagonize the other side? If 'those opposed' had been left alone on their side of the road rather than being f*****d with, none of this would've happened.

    I am skeptical of your biased account, and I hope the police have the sense to be as well. If “Orange Shirt” was really 'aching to fight' he'd have come over to your side of the road. But if was the psycho finger biter who did that, not the old man.

    Liberals suck. And bite.

  • Charley

    There is no excuse for assault on someone. This is especially true when someone is assaulted over their political stance. That goes for all sides of any debate. If old-nine-digits hit this man first, then what ever happened to him next is okay by me. When I was growing up we called that a life lesson.

    All that said, one sure way to put someone in a pro-free-health-care frame of mind is to put them in need of it. ;)

  • Concerned Citizen

    Your interpretation is fascinating. I wonder why the innocent finger biter ran away and fled the scene. Grant Markus, a well known democrat, attacked a physician several weeks ago at a very peaceful impromptu discussion at the T.O. Library. That crime was witnessed by an undercover police officer so there will be no interpretations by people like you claiming things that maybe you shouldn't. That police officer was also assaulted by Grant Markus and he will be going to jail for battery, resisting arrest and probably other charges too.

    At any rate there is no excuses for becoming physical or violent. “no question that Orange Shirt guy was aching to fight, was willing to pick a fight, and certainly didn’t care who he fought with”. Regardless of your opinion this does not justify taking off a finger or violence of any sort.

    This is an important issue that should be decided methodically and with bipartisan involvement. The faster they try to rush it through the more anxious it makes me. Obama himself remarked that surgeons make $40,000 to remove a foot. The published and easily verifiable amount is in fact $1000. Is he that misinformed or is he deliberately trying to pit patients against providers. Either way does not look good for Mr. Obama

  • Charley


    I think you meant fist fight, not first fight.

    The Marquis of Queensbury rules went out of style in roughly 1910. If someone is under assault in this day and age you can only assume that your life is at stake and take whatever measures are necessary to effectively defend yourself.

    Anything less then that can and will get the one being assaulted killed.

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  • uknowbetter

    Whoever started the physical violence was the aggressor, whether it was a push or a punch.

  • CJinPA

    “Drop the pretense. It is not polite to lie.”

    Ha. Don't challenge my bonafides, Sparky. I don't lie about party affiliation, especially in an anonymous web posting. I've been to lots of demonstrations, as a conservative. I stood in the middle of a pack of angry young liberals at the 2000 GOP convention in Philadelphia. When I read about a guy “shooing” away a little lady because her words are just too much to take, I see the same liberal punks who wouldn't let me talk.

    As I read it, the little lady didn't go over to “the wrong side of the street” to start a fight, but to get more fliers. Maybe I am too trusting of this account. If so, my mistake. Maybe she was picking a fight – of words. The big guy should have responded with the same.

    “Um, the person who 'relieved his rage' was the person who did the biting.”

    Er, I think the guy who responded to words by throwing a punch was the first to lose control. In fact, I'm sure of it. I could “flatten” a supporter of Obamacare with my words….the fact that the president, advocates and members of Congress have admitted that the Orwellian sounding “public option” is merely a necessary step to achieve government health care… the fact that the “46 million uninsured Americans” is more honestly around 8 million…the fact that nearly 90 percent of voters have health insurance and 70 percent think it's a good value….See? They'd collapse under the sheer weight of the facts. There’s no need intimidate little ladies and sucker punch people who disagree if you know what you’re talking about.

  • Mike

    That old man got what he deserved. No longer will we sit back and allow the violent and the ignorant shape policy in this country. The country wanted CHANGE, and it's CHANGE we deserve.

  • cajuncocoa

    Again, partisanship dictates what is and what is not acceptable behavior. Would any of you be so quick to make excuses for the biter if he had been among the opponents of Obamacare? I think not (and neither would I).

  • usmadness

    Type your comment here. I cannot believe anyone HAD to walk through that HUGE group of anti-government healthcare protestors.

  • cajuncocoa

    LOL, that's not how it works. This is America. Just because someone DISAGREES with you doesn't make them “ignorant”. Open your mind and listen to a different point of view.

    Neither side should sit back and allow violence, of course. That said, from that far away, the author of this story was not in a position to know what was said in the confrontation, so we don't know whether the Obamacare supporter engaged in verbal assault toward the opponents. That may explain why the biting-victim was shooing away people who came over from the Obamacare group. In any case, I believe both the biter (for biting) and the bitee (for punching) should be arrested.

  • bozak

    So the finger biter leaves the scene of the crime.
    And none of the 150 pro healthcare supporters didn't tell the police the name of the finger biter.
    No surprise.
    “Orange shirt seemed to have PR Guy in a hold, but again, I was across the street, so won’t state that as absolute fact.”
    So you have no clue what went on across the street. So everything you wrote about the incident is secondhand from the person that left the scene of a crime. Why should anyone take you serious?

  • jixtreme

    All hail change! Let's punch people and bite fingers off until everyone agrees with us!

    THAT is hope and change; Change I can believe in!

  • usmadness

    I suppose it's alright for a woman to shoot a guy in the back after he has finished beating her up in public? Oh, no, wait… that would involve you! Not good.

  • biker02


  • usmadness

    It certainly speaks to the biased elements of the “objective” retelling of events.

  • Anonymous

    Funny…when regular Americans just started showing up to voice their opposition to this agenda, there was no violence. Now that “Dear Leader” has summoned his robots to show up…and there's plenty of videotape of the astroturfing that's going on…there is violence. Don't pretend it's on both sides — IT IS NOT! That 65-year-old has the most to lose in this situation…stay on your damned side of the street…and your side of the country too!

  • bcage

    Ok; man in the group of “peaceful people holding signs and candles” felt the band of 9 [too wide to walk around] treated “always smiling … not rude, not mean” flyer lady inappropriately by apparently “shooing her with his hands”. So, he walks from band of 150 to confront orange shirt. A scuffle ensues and the man bites off finger of orange shirt man. man returns to peaceful group of people holding signs and candles and announces he “was hit hard in the face so he bit his finger off.” During this, you asked people to record the confrontation with their video cameras and decided the lighting was not good enough to record it yourself, but, instead, used [it seems] the same camera to shoot still photos that apparently have enough light.

    Some questions quickly come to mind – did anyone take you up on the request to video the confrontation? Maybe they did film it and were simply afraid that the time to get it back from the police would be far too great to submit it for review.

    Did sweet flyer lady actually go to her car? You indicate that “maybe she ran out of flyers” and then that she ultimately returned to her side of the street. Could it be that smiling flyer lady went across the street to “discuss” her view points?

    What reaction did the group give to biter man when he came across the street [maybe blood trickling down his chin] to announce his “solution” to the problem at hand? I would assume that if he was going back to his car to leave after the bite, then he would have had no reason to come back across the street since parking was apparently behind the band of 9 so it “appears” that he came across to relate his adventures to the peaceful group holding signs and candles.

    Last question; you are joking aren't you?

  • sanfordj

    That is so typical of right-wing wackos — provoking peaceful protesters and attacking them. The PR guy clearly was just defending himself.
    The right-wingers are losing the battle on health care, so they have to resort to violence. They might as well accept the fact that it's high time they started making some sacrifices to help the less fortunate in society. It's unthinkable that anyone in America would be denied the right to visit a doctor.
    Of course, all the corporate-owned media will make the ruffian in the orange shirt look like an innocent elderly person. Thank you for telling us the truth about these ogres.

  • usmadness

    Ooh! You need to speak on behalf of the party store owner from Michigan who is being sued by the thief he shot in the leg as the thief was leaving his store with knife and goods in hand. I'm sure your sophistry would be well received by the courts and very helpful to the party store owner's defense.

  • rossanderson

    You are a liar
    IO heard the incident from the man that took the elderly gentlemans finger to him at the hospital. One of your goons passed by younger men to confront the senior and was in his face to less than 3 feet. The elder was the first to push the goon away……….then the scumbag bit the elders finger off. It was gathered up by the witness, taken to the local hospital where maybe it can be reattached. The goon was not to be found.

    Your a liar

  • tonyjenson

    Demonstraters are not allowed to block through-fares like corners and crosswalks.

    It happens all the time with union protests and they like the group of 9, are at fault. By blocking the woman's passing, a case could be made that Orange Shirt was “coersing” the woman. Frankly at that point, the police should have been called.

    It is not society's responsibilty to alter their free right of passage to accomodate a gang of 9 or even 1.

  • Jack Sprat

    “Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy”
    So what in your mind could possibly justify biting the finger off of anyone?
    Apparently your 150-200 “passionate” 'bamanauts couldn't handle 9 or 10 anti-socialists, just how old was the pathetic biter? and can you not solve differences without loosing physical control? Oddly those who were on the other side of the street said the 'bama-biter came across the street “aggressive and ready to mix it up”. So apparently he was “passionate” and the 65 year old was aggressive, again just who bit off the finger of whom?

  • usmadness

    Spending a little too much time listening to Shawn Hannity?

  • Charley

    It appears we uncovered a very cost effective way to amputate a finger…

  • AlexS

    I will withold judgement until both sides of the story are heard. I have been searching the web and have yet to find any witness accounts from the side of the street where the biting took place. All of the stories I have read are branding the victim of the crime as the aggressor and I am assuming it is because of this blog because it is the only reference in those stories. is very well funded and organized so a I am absolutley sure that someone at that vigil knows exactly who the biter is. If MoveOn is truly peaceful and law abiding they will alert the authorities of the biter's identity so that he can be arrested and questioned. Let our legal system take its course.

  • Jack Sprat

    “If old-nine-digits hit this man “
    That is the big question isn't it since the “viewer”, hardly unbiased, couldn't tell from across the street and those that were in a position to see said the belligerent one was the guy than went all the way across the street. Animals bite, children bite, Mike Tyson bites, sane humans do not. While the animal who did this did perform, what would become typical under socialist health care, the only solution for “treatment” would take too long to do anyone any good. Hope you’re in good health and your last name isn’t Bobbett.

  • Charley

    Now that's just ignorance. Shooting someone on the way out of the store is a little over the line. However, in some states as long as the bad guy still had the knife in his possession when the trigger was pulled, it would be a legal shoot. I think those states are growing bored with fruitless pursuit of armed robbers after the fact and allowing shop keepers more leniency.

    You are comparing apples to oranges here. The difference between someone walking away and someone in the process of beating another is clearly different.

    It is kind of like the unwritten rule in my house. If I am home alone and someone breaks in, they might get a chance to surrender even though in my state it is legal to shoot an intruder in my home. If someone should have the bad judgment to break into my home while any of my family is present, that is a capital offense.

    Life is full of choices. The choice to break into my home. The choice to commit assault on a stranger. The choice to remain civil and debate with words rather then fists. All those choices bring rewards or consequences.

    That is a lesson that most children used to have down by the first or second grade. At least that was the way it was when I was growing up.

  • bozak

    Excellent point.
    Until Obama called out the union thugs and other Obama supporters there was not a single reported incident of violence.
    Now violence is happening even in thousand oaks.
    Obama said CHANGE, I don't think this was the CHANGE any voter anticipated.

  • lafe

    If someone punched me in the face they wouldn't be simply walking to the hospital, they would be going in on a stretcher. Orange shirt guy got what he deserved.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    Your account from across the stree is pure speculation. You should listen to “Scott's” account. The gentleman who delivered the senior's finger to him at the hospital to be re-attached. If your side is so compassionate, why don't you identify the biter so that he can be brought in and prosecuted properly.

    Those supporting Obama Care are “Biting Off The Hands (Finger) That Feed Them”. Your blog is so corny, I had to laugh. I especially like your picture of the radical Right Wing Big Scary Mob. How pathetic. They look like ordinary Thousand Oaks Residents who were out to stand up against your Obama Backed Move On . Org.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    Your account from across the stree is pure speculation. You should listen to “Scott's” account. The gentleman who delivered the senior's finger to him at the hospital to be re-attached. If your side is so compassionate, why don't you identify the biter so that he can be brought in and prosecuted properly.

    Those supporting Obama Care are “Biting Off The Hands (Finger) That Feed Them”. Your blog is so corny, I had to laugh. I especially like your picture of the radical Right Wing Big Scary Mob. How pathetic. They look like ordinary Thousand Oaks Residents who were out to stand up against your Obama Backed Move On . Org.

  • Mark

    Your account may work for your crowd but reality will, perhaps, look quite a lot different.
    I've met many a progressive in my life and they have a sense about them, of superior intelligence. I believe the more-on peaceniks were looking to cause trouble and I'll wager you the cretin who got punched in the face will show no bruising.

    The moron who bit the seniors finger off fights like a child, mean, nasty and below the belt. A “man” would not bite.

    The writer here is biased, a given. I'm only reading between the lines and I may be wrong on some, but not, I expect, on all.

    I seek discussion with the left oftentimes and usually get nothing approaching a willingness to honestly compare ideas and what I receive in return is, generally speaking poorly formed Utopian dream-like arguments unsupported by logic or example.

    I am looking forward to the police report.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    Sandfordj. You comment that the orange shirt guy was the aggressor and your guy was obviously defending himself make no sense, since it was your guy who crossed the street and provoked the altercation. Also, an eye witness at the scene reported that your guy threw the first punch.
    How pathetic your side is.

  • markinboston

    Thanks so much for your personal report. I saw the KTLA report late last night and the ANTI-reform guys were reportedly the bad guys, not so per your report.

    This is very unfortunate, we should not give the bad guys a chance to paint us as dangerous and violent – although… it might make them hesitate to be such jerks…

    now – if we could only bite the fingers off all the scumbag lobbyists…

  • Name

    Has it EVER crossed anyone's mind to BITE a part of another human being's body OFF just because they were angry. I'll bet no, because we are supposed to be humans, not ANIMALS. I'm amused at your feeble attempt to make it the victim's “fault.” These meetings were fairly peaceful until Obama called out his Chicago thugs and unleashed them on everyday Americans who don't want to live in a Communist country run by “Obama. The Annointed One.”

  • just saying

    “So what in your mind could possibly justify biting the finger off of anyone?”

    Getting punched in the face and being physically threatened. It's called self-defense. He who throws the first punch gets all the blame. Golden rule applies.

  • thecentrist

    “In order to get from the parking lot to the vigil, we were required to walk through the group of people opposed to health care reform. As you can see in the photo, they were originally staged right before the crosswalk to the thruway, so there was no way to avoid walking through their group.”

    There are less than a dozen people in that picture. Why would a group of such thoughtful, sensible, intellectual people pick a spot to voice their opinion on such a polarizing issue with only one point of access?

    It's hard to imagine somebody being a part of such a peaceful, innocent group of people with candles being morally bankrupt enough to bite off somebody else's finger. It's hilarious that you try to cast the situation as such.

    Your grossly slanted point of view aside, both men should be arrested. Trying to justify or even partially excuse either one for this is just ridiculous.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I will withhold judgement until the real facts are published but it sure looks like the moveon guy came the distance to make trouble. I suspect that when the guy is identified that he will be one of the SEIU goons that have had lots of other hands on incidents that have gone under the radar. It is just a guess but we will be looking for the truth.

    And to the guy that wants to bite off the fingers of lobbyists. Would you want to consider members of the Apollo project and the SEIU in that same group?

  • shep

    “Um, the person who ‘relieved his rage’ was the person who did the biting.”

    Biting off a finger does sound more about rage than self-defense but, nevertheless, if the older guy struck first he was lucky he didn’t get much, much worse – and it would have completely, legally justified.

  • pushingyourluck

    I may be a pro-reform liberal and I go to healthcare debates……If you stand and yell in my face , I'll stand in yours and yell…… If you poke and prod me, I'll respond tenfold, So that being said “push me” and see what happens next, you will not like the result.

    Healthcare should have been fixed 20 years ago ….. Nows the time , stand up America to these bullies and help all America get healthcare not just the rightious few……Medical care for all Ameicans paid for by Americans is the Good Samaritan thing to do and the right thing.

  • gladness

    It is so strange that this is all about Healthcare Reform… wars, torture, wiretapping, 9-11, terrorism, global warming, bank fraud, recession/depression… and we are going into a civil war because of … healthcare reform? Seriously, what is the deeper root of this madness?

  • epiphannyy

    You need to contact Politics Daily and have them correct their “version” of the story. Here is what THEY are saying, while linking to your blog and the KTLA and LA Times stories….

    “A 65-year-old man demonstrating in support of health care reform at a rally near Los Angeles had his finger bitten off after a violent confrontation with a reform opponent Wednesday night. According to one bystander's account, the reform supporter, part of a group of 100 or so demonstrators, had aggressively threatened a small group of anti-Obama protesters who were “peaceful people holding up candles and signs.” (Police reports concur that the Obama supporter moved across the street into the group of protesters.) He landed a heavy blow to the face of one protester, who responded by chomping off his pinky.”

    Whose version is right? Politics Daily's version, or everyone else's??

  • Name2

    I thought the author condemned both of them…hmm maybe that was just the 'liberal' reading. But, have you EVER punched someone in the face because you disagreed with their politics?

  • lijohy

    Why does it matter? People have right to engage in debate, no one has the right to physically confront someone. And what do you mean by “getting cute”? Would you still say that if the Pro-Health care supporter was a man?

  • mp

    both of your folks should have stayed on your side of the street.
    Also, biting a finger off in not an appropriate response.

  • larky61

    Don't you mean white-nessed it? You ignorant bastard, racist, sexist “biker”.

  • dejava

    how much $ for sewing the finger back on.. How'd it get in little guy's mouth? Who pays? (the doctors? the heath insurance coalition?)

  • mb

    Humans are animals. You should have completed your secondary education–you might have even learned what communism is, and thus wouldn't carelessly drop it into each of your partisan rants. Humans engage in biting during altercations with some frequency. Preferably the altercations that lead to such desperate means of competing wouldn't occur, which in this case would have required the 'victim' to keep his hands to himself. Keep that in mind before you go around with such a partisan narrative: the dipshit punched a guy in the face over a disagreement. That sort of antisocial behavior isn't acceptable either, and things wouldn't have escalated if he had actually been peaceful. Finally, drop the “Chicago thug” nonsense. You are shitting on an entire U.S. city and its inhabitants for petty partisan politics. Grow up. There will be many more administrations, some of which you will favor and some of which you will not, but if you savage the country in your haste to make opposition you've only succeeded in making an enemy of your own countrymen.

  • Daniel

    A lot of people are linking this story as an eyewitness account, but from your version of events, it's not very clear what happened. And your tweet makes it seems like there are troublemakers ruining it for you, but your account makes it seem like it's one guy being aggressive.

    I'm sorry but this account isn't really worthwhile, neither is that redcounty guy that others are responding with. I can't wait for the LAPD to wrap this thing up so we can find out who these two guys really are.

  • Karoli

    I don't know why she went to the other side of the street. But she
    wasn't threatening, or violent, or even speaking. I didn't see her
    trying to give anyone there a flyer. Maybe she tried. I don't know.

  • Charley

    Yes it is. Rice is on Fox News right now. He freely admits that he swung first, and he swung twice. Face facts, if someone swings at someone else, all rules of courtesy are off.

  • Karoli

    Hmmmm. We had to walk through that group to get to and from our cards.
    There was no alternate route. I'm not defending anyone. I think
    punching someone out is an inappropriate response. I think violent
    language is inappropriate. I think the entire debate has spiralled out
    of control.

  • Charley

    Rice, a/k/a “ol'-nine-digits,” said the hospital would not reattach it because of the bacteria involved with a human bite. The finger got in the biter's mouth when Rice through his second punch. He said, “My finger went in his mouth and didn't come out.”

    Rice pays. He also said he has no intention of suing.

  • boxo

    Thanks for the unbiased report. It is a rare treat these days to find a simple straight forward accounting of what was seen and heard.

  • Karoli

    well, if he's really 65, Medicare pays. It was a complete dustup. Who
    knows how it got there? I certainly don't.

  • Karoli

    No one deserves to be punched in the face or have their finger bitten
    off. No one. No political issue is worth such a thing.

  • Karoli

    This goes far beyond this debate. Far beyond it. It isn't clear what
    happened. I was on the other side of the street. I have photos, but am
    working with detectives to place them in context. I never said I had
    all the facts. Eyewitness accounts are what they are. I make no claim
    to be the single harbinger of accuracy. I saw a punch thrown, and a
    man fall in the street. I saw a woman threatened before any of that. I
    saw a hairball of a dustup. And I heard the biter's account. That's all.

  • Karoli

    And again, I repeat what I said in the post and in the comments: I
    don't condone, support or defend violent behavior. I do, however,
    understand that when someone punches someone else between the eyes,
    there is likely to be a response.

  • Karoli

    You all are spinning now. I have consistently said I don't agree with
    violence of any kind from any side. it's to your benefit to spin this
    as some sort of egregious act on the part of Democrats, MoveOn, or
    Obama, but the facts speak otherwise. NO Violence is acceptable. NONE.

  • Karoli

    You're spinning too.

  • Karoli

    Last question first: I am NOT joking.

    My still camera is a Nikon D200 with a fast lens. I had a Nikon
    CoolPix550 which would not pick up video in that light, especially
    with cars passing. I opted not to even try, knowing as I do that the
    video quality on that camera sucks. My D200 had a mid-level ISO
    setting and a fast 1.8 lens on it. Yes, it made a difference. Huge
    difference between the two cameras.

    I don't know if anyone video'd the confrontation. I didn't see anyone
    do it. It wasn't like it took 15 minutes. It was done in about 5

    I don't know if the lady went to her car. I do know how tall she was,
    and her demeanor. It was what I reported.

    The people who heard the man's declaration were as incredulous as I.

  • Charley

    Actually the man who lost the finger, His name is Rice, went on Fox News and admitted that he swung first and swung again. Your account is more or less accurate on that score. However, the number of anti-Obamacare protesters on the other side of the street and space around them tell a different story about how the event came to pass.

    Who the initial aggressor was? Hard to tell.

    It is starting to look like offsetting penalties to me.

  • Esthier

    This is far from unbiased, though it's nice that she seems to be trying to be unbiased. She clearly framed the fight as something instigated by the man she doesn't consider a senior citizen even though he clearly qualifies as one.

    She admits that she isn't 100% on any of that, which is nice, but ultimately irrelevant. She seems to know exactly what the old guy did to start the whole thing but didn't even realize the other man really did bite the guy's finger off?

    Again, I appreciate it that she's trying to be unbiased, but she clearly isn't.

    That said, I agree with her that both men behaved badly. Though it seems the older man will end up paying the biggest price, as he's now said that the hospital wasn't able to reattach his finger (as has been previously reported), because human bites have too much bacteria in them.

  • Karoli

    When someone hits you square in the face, reactions are likely to be
    volatile. Do I think his was appropriate? NO. Absolutely not. Do I
    think your name calling is appropriate? No. Absolutely not.

  • Esthier

    You haven't reported that a woman was threatened. You said yourself that you didn't hear what he said. He may have been stepping towards her and waving his arms, but that doesn't automatically translate into a threat.

    I'm not even arguing that he didn't threaten her either, only that it hasn't been established that he was.

  • Esthier

    You haven't reported that a woman was threatened. You said yourself that you didn't hear what he said. He may have been stepping towards her and waving his arms, but that doesn't automatically translate into a threat.

    I'm not even arguing that he didn't threaten her either, only that it hasn't been established that he was.

  • Karoli

    I am not a liar. You have no basis to say that. I knew NO ONE on
    either side who was there. I came because I wanted to make a public
    statement about support for health care reform. You don't know
    anything about me. If you did, you would not call me a liar.

  • Karoli

    Call me an asshole again and i'll block your IP. Behave and be civil,
    or comment on your own blog. Thank you.

  • Karoli

    If I knew his name, I would tell it.

  • Karoli

    To be clearer here: Orange shirt guy wasn't the victim.

  • Esthier

    So you support what Mike Tyson did?

    Give me a break. Punching a political opponent is wrong, but it doesn't excuse dismemberment, which is a far more serious criminal offense. Rice has lost a piece of his finger, while the other guy might have a black eye that will eventually heal. Apples and oranges.

  • Charley

    You have your facts wrong. Mr. Rice, a/k/a “Ol' nine digits,” was on Fox News. He freely admitted that he swung first and twice. It was the second punch that cost him his finger. Rice stated that his swing was in response to the the biter entering “his personal space.”

    Might want to go easy on that lair thing.

  • Karoli

    Well, you'd think they could, wouldn't you? You'd think it would be a
    simple matter of inhabiting the same sidewalk. But it wasn't. Even
    going back to my car, we passed through the lot of 'em, who were
    certainly solicitous while cops were in the area, not so much before
    that. Whatever. The fact remains, the first punch between the eyes did
    not come from our group. The response was over the top. But it was

  • Karoli

    Well, you'd think they could, wouldn't you? You'd think it would be a
    simple matter of inhabiting the same sidewalk. But it wasn't. Even
    going back to my car, we passed through the lot of 'em, who were
    certainly solicitous while cops were in the area, not so much before
    that. Whatever. The fact remains, the first punch between the eyes did
    not come from our group. The response was over the top. But it was

  • Karoli

    Actually, I never said he wasn't a senior citizen. I said he wasn't
    frail. He wasn't.

  • Karoli

    I'm sorry, but that's just disingenuous. When a man is verbally
    approaching accompanied by loud language and clearly working to see to
    it that she is shooed into the crosswalk, that's a threat. No, he
    didn't touch her. He didn't hit her. But he very clearly used his size
    and his language to intimidate her with the goal of running her off.

  • Emer_Doc

    I can not speak to the facts as it relates to this case. I was not there. But, I did spend a lot of my teenage years living on the streets of So. Cal and I am now an emergency doctor, so I think I know a little bit about violence (fighting) and health care. First violence – if you physically assault (punch) someone they are likely to defend themselves. This may include biting off a finger or a range of other violent behaviors. People do not seem to realize violence is just that. The first man could have killed the other with his punch or vice versa. In this case one man lost part of his finger. The police should complete their investigation and file charges against the one who broke the law. That is physically assaulted another. It is not against the law (maybe stupid, but not illegal) to be in a group of people with differing political views and express a different opinion.

    Second Health Care – this country will have health care reform. It will come by (hopefully) thoughtful deliberation or by the collapse of the current system if we continue to allow for profit industries to continue to dictate health care policy. While many people get emotionally charged up whenever someone uses the word socialism (communism, any ism….) we must face the fact that health care is not a free market (if you develop cancer and the drugs cost $25,000 per dose you will pay because your alternative is to die – not a free market) and our current system will not work for much longer.

    It is odd as one person previously noted with all the other things taking place in society and our government that we are resorting to violence over an issue which will ultimately improve most normal people lives and is only likely to hurt the profits of some corporations.

  • Charley

    Hold on there Cajuncocoa. I'm about as anti-Obamacare as you can get. It will trash the finest health care system in the world. It will cause an economic downturn in the stock market when a half trillion dollars in stock equity vanishes off the markets in the wake of private health insurance failures. It will bankrupt the US Treasury and drive what is left of wealth producing industries of shore with even higher taxes. And it will end up rationing health care because the money, infrastructure and personnel simply do not exist.

    All that said, Mr. Rice (now known as “Ol' nine digits”) swung first and twice. By his own admission live and in person on national TV. He did so because the biter “entered his personal space” whatever that means.

    Mr. Rice made chose unwisely in his decision making that day. He got what we used to call a “life lesson.” Perhaps next time he will not be so quick to throw a punch.

  • Jennifer Ster

    A little more info…..

    a TV interview with the bitten man(with a picture)….

    A diferent sperspective from the other side…..

    Basically this simply confirms both men behaving badly.

  • cajuncocoa

    Seems to me there was LOTS of room to walk far around (instead of “through”) that group if you suspected they were troublemakers.

    Unless, of course, someone was itching for a fight.

    After hearing other accounts of this story, I no longer believe the 65 year old was the one who was itching.

  • Jen

    Wow….people talking stupid all up in your post!

    This is YOUR account of the story….which you seemed to imply from word one. Don't you love when people waste their own time doing pointless and negative things like picking apart the personal account of another? I wouldn't repeat my “I don't condone” comment again. If people can't understand the written form of our language the first time around, they're just looking for either an argument or an ego boost.

    So for my opinion, both those guys sound like nutballs. How unfortunate for the both of them.

  • kevinshep

    Seems to me that if PR went all the way across that road he was most likely the aggressive one. The Old guy didnt approach PR … PR approached Old guy. Just Say'n

  • cajuncocoa

    I agree with your points on Obamacare (I'm also against it), and I agree that the 65 year old had no right to throw punches, but I disagree with you on the other point. The guy acted like an animal (with apologies to the animal community as they don't know better). There is absolutely no justification for him to dismember a fellow human being. None.

  • Karoli

    orange shirt guy wasn't the victim. Just to clarify things.

  • Karoli

    That's your right. He's already said he hit first.

  • Karoli

    Hello? Pure speculation? One speculates when one isn't present. I told
    you what I saw. You can believe or disbelieve. I don't KNOW the
    biter's name. I do have a clear photo, which I have given to the
    Sheriff's department. Isn't that what citizens do? Let the police
    investigate? If I knew his name, I'd tell them. I knew NO ONE.

  • Karoli

    Hello? Pure speculation? One speculates when one isn't present. I told
    you what I saw. You can believe or disbelieve. I don't KNOW the
    biter's name. I do have a clear photo, which I have given to the
    Sheriff's department. Isn't that what citizens do? Let the police
    investigate? If I knew his name, I'd tell them. I knew NO ONE.

  • Charley

    Dear Emer_Doc,

    How much do you get paid? How much of that are you willing to give up in order to hand control over to the government?

    How are you going to feel when you discover that government bureaucrats will be reviewing all your decisions and evaluating your performance with their eye on the budget? Are you prepared to have your protocols and those of your paramedics revamped based on some government bureaucrat's idea of what is and what is not required treatment?

    How about reviewing a stack of rejected medicare/medicaid payments at a local ambulance company with me. I would be delighted to hear your medical explanation of “Ambulance transport not needed.” when patients were:
    - In respiratory arrest
    - Experiencing a massive GI bleed
    - In VTAC
    - Exhibiting stroke symptoms with complete loss of control over the right side of the body and a loss of ability to speak.

    He has a large stack of those rejected payment notices he's gathered over the last couple years. Doctors, hospitals and other health care providers all have a similar stack. Try asking around at your billing department and see what they say.

    Can you imagine what it is going to be like if those very same government idiots assume control over the entire population?

    While you are justifying your call for government seizure of private property, would you tell me who should pay all the stock holders and owners of privately held companies for their equity in those health care industries?

    My friend mentioned above might be happy to turn over the keys to his ambulances at a very reasonable price at this point. 48 years in the business and he's had enough.

  • Karoli

    Oh, stop. Believe what you want about me and about who I am. When
    someone is hit in the face, they respond, which is why no one should
    have hit anyone. Period.

  • Karoli

    I'm sure they're looking to use their incalcitrance to intimidate me
    into bending to their point of view. I saw what I saw.

  • not a boxing match

    Tyson was in a boxing match. It is a sport where two people agree to fight based upon a set of agreed upon rules. What Tyson did was unsupportable, but it has no relation to this event. Rice didn't engage in a sports event, he assaulted and individual who defended himself from Rice's illegal attack.

  • Dan

    Great account. Both men, like both extremes on this issue, behaved badly. But I will say this, if you throw a punch at someone, you should expect a response. And there are no rules to a street brawl besides winning. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

  • Tom

    I wonder whether your decision to take the photos home before turning them over to the police will leave them vulnerable to exclusion at the trial, assuming there is one.

    It would be easy to argue that the photos should not be used because they could have been altered in the time between when they were taken and when the police received copies.

  • Tom_C

    As more reports come out, we see that the victim lost his finger – it could NOT be re-attached.

    Secondly, as more is told the victim seems less and less at fault here.

    Thirdly, we see plenty of glee from the liberal about his man having Medicaid. Well, the hospital cleaned him up, gave him a bandage and sent hm home.

    For a Medicaid patient they wouldn't try any heroic measures to save his finger, it was just a kiss and a band-aid. Minimal medical treatment his wife probably could have given him out of his medical cabinet.

    Which makes the left bragging about Medicaid all the more absurd!

  • Charley

    One other note on your “not-for-profit” thing. A few years ago I had occasion to be in the corporate offices of the Baptist Healthcare System in Louisville, KY. This is a non-profit organization.

    Now I've been in and out of the offices of corporate Gods ranging from General Motors to Eli Lilly. Some of those offices are nice, some are down right grand.

    But that corporate office at the Baptist Healthcare was well and truly over the top. The reception area consisted of a large room with fine furnishings and original paintings on the wall. A full concert grand piano graced one side of the room. A well stocked bar was along the other side. We are talking fine furnishings and fine accoutrement all around.

    That corporate office was finer then any that I have ever seen. We are talking a display of opulence that one must usually go to a movie to see.

    Don't hand me that “not-for-profit” garbage. I've seen not for profit. I should have such a lack of profits.

  • dejava

    hell…any fool kkkknows if you stick something in the mouth of a Guy right after punching imin the face…. jeezzz that was dumb!

  • Karoli

    actually, he opted for it not to be reattached.

  • Karoli

    I gave a full statement to the Sheriffs at the scene and showed them
    my photos at that time. it was agreed that they would not confiscate
    my camera if I supplied them with the photos immediately upon
    returning home. I lived up to that, gave them full size photos last

  • nobody agrees with scott

    “Scott's” account doesn't even match the account of the guy “Rice” who had his finger bit off. So I think we can safely discount “Scott's” account. Rice's account more closely matches Karoli's account than Scott's

  • Name

    “Don’t be fooled by reports ginning up sympathy for that 65-year old guy or worse yet, reports characterizing him as a senior citizen. He was aggressive and ready to mix it up.”


  • matthewr83

    You are a poorly informed fool. Unless you consider my 5'5″ 160lb father to be very tall, you have trancended from sharing fact to fairy tail. My father wasn't even wearing an orange shirt. He was wearing a green shirt that was ripped on the left shoulder when I was able to visit him after his release from the ER where his finger could not be re attached. I am 26 years old and I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF MY DAD GET INTO A PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION OF ANY SORTS in my life.

    He was verbally harassed by the first women that crossed the street AS HE WAS TRYING TO LEAVE THE EVENT. My father had no signs. He was not there to protest. Your organization staged an event that was practically in my father's drive way, and he wanted to learn more about what was happening in HIS communituy. If the man who crossed the street was confronting him in such a peaceful way, then why did my father, who has not been in a fist fight as long as I have been alive, feel threatened to the point that he needed to defend himself and his own personal space?

    The only thing that amazes me more than your lack of factual information on the subject is your willingness to use the situation as propaganda largely painting the supporters of your cause as men of honor (with the exception of the man who bit my father). Quite frankly, the entire incident disgusts me, and I will continue to pray that justice will be served for the man that disfigured my father.

  • badka2ma

    actually he did not, i saw him intervewed. he said the hospital told him the finger had zero chance of living due to the fact that it was a human bite and the bacteria would cause his body to reject it.

  • Karoli

    and YOU conveniently forget that one in that little group of 12 or so
    people HIT HIM FIRST.

  • Karoli

    You guys like to scapegoat SEIU for everything. I don't know if he was
    or wasn't. I do know that the group was NOT agitating. My photos are
    now available at

  • Charley

    I'll bet they did. They have no legal right to confiscate your camera or even compel you to produce the photos. Only a subpoena can do that.

  • Karoli

    characterizing him as a senior citizen suggests he was incapable of
    violence or somehow infirm.

  • Karoli

    Dear matthew,

    The first women that crossed the street were there long before your
    father or anyone else was there. I was already across the street when
    you all arrived. The rest of your rant will stand, but if you come on
    here and start with the name-calling again, I'll block you just as
    soon as look at you.

  • Karoli

    that's what he said, yes. there are conflicting accounts, evidently.

  • badka2ma

    according to the man that got bit, the other man came at him so he punched him. the man came at him again so then he punched him again in the mouth, the other man bit down and got a snack. the point is when you intrude into anothers “personal space” you're then one that can expect someone to defend themselves. lunging at someone is action enough to allow the other to defend themselves.

    when this all goes down, i would be willing to wager that the man that did the biting will be going to jail. he did afterall bite his finger off. the man that got bit may face charges also. but biting a finger off is not self defense by any means. a lady recently got 15 years behind bars for biting a maryland police officers finger off.

    although we are talking about kalifornia here where up is down and down is up.

  • badka2ma

    according to the man that got bit, the other man came at him so he punched him. the man came at him again so then he punched him again in the mouth, the other man bit down and got a snack. the point is when you intrude into anothers “personal space” you're then one that can expect someone to defend themselves. lunging at someone is action enough to allow the other to defend themselves.

    when this all goes down, i would be willing to wager that the man that did the biting will be going to jail. he did afterall bite his finger off. the man that got bit may face charges also. but biting a finger off is not self defense by any means. a lady recently got 15 years behind bars for biting a maryland police officers finger off.

    although we are talking about kalifornia here where up is down and down is up.

  • Charley

    If this is truly your father, you should sit down and have a talk with him. He freely admitted on national television that he swung first and then swing again. Sorry, when he swung, all rules were off.

    If your father were truly a man of honor, he would not have taken the first swing. Men of honor do not throw punches. Once a punch is thrown, honor is out the window until one side of the conflict surrenders.

    He lost his finger. That is extreme, but some life lessons come at a high price. Hope he recovers form the event.

  • crossing roads is legal

    Actually Rice himself says he started out by driving by the protesters, and seeing Code Pink there. He then parked and went FIRST over to the side of the street where the 100-150 group was, to find out if Code Pink was there to protest against war. He said he did this because his son was in the Marines. It was only after that when he went to the anti-Obama protest side. This is from an interview with Rice himself. So if your apportionment of blame is based upon who crossed the street, it was Rice first again.

    In reality, it is perfectly legal to cross the street. It is NOT a violent act to cross the street and engage in speaking with people. It does not justify Rice starting the encounter by throwing punches.

  • dmontrk

    I'm sorry, as and Independent, your story sounds biased and should not be referenced by other media, the police will figure out this he said she said crap.

  • Bill

    You've got to be more accurate than that. I tend to mostly believe your representation of the events, but having set yourself up as a witness to these events, you have a responsibility not only to be honest, but also to think about your use of the language so that you do not cause more damage to the truth of the matter by opening your honest account to attack through carelessly prejudicial wording. You *wrote* a statement saying not to be fooled by reports that, “worse yet”, characterize him as a senior citizen. You did not write the statement, “he wasn't frail”. By your own standard of interpretation expressed here, what you *implied* can be taken as what you *said*.

    You did strongly imply that he wasn't frail by your description of his actions. You also strongly implied that he shouldn't be given any consideration that people are normally wont to give upon hearing the words “senior citizen”.

    Long story short, you as much “said” he wasn't a senior citizen (“Don't be fooled by” (those who) “worse yet”, “characterize him as a senior citizen”), as you “said” he wasn't frail. (And how is simply acknowledging that he is a senior citizen–which does *not* exonerate anyone from bad behavior–worse than, as you said, ginning up sympathy for him?)

    You didn't actually write either statement, but what you did write supported Esthier's interpretation–”she doesn't consider” (him) “a senior citizen”–just as much as it supported yours–”he wasn't frail”.

    What's more, Esthier isn't even saying you *said* he wasn't a senior citizen, just pointing out that you obviously don't want him viewed as one. The assumption you're making, which is probably true for a lot of people, is that when people hear “senior citizen”, they think “frail”. It would have been better to just address that issue directly, instead of making the sidestep of redefining the legal term “senior citizen” by implication and assuming everyone will go with you on that without direct explanation of your intent.

    Why am I so finely parsing words here? Well, this whole story makes it apparent how when people aren't willing to put forth the effort to express themselves accurately, whole wrong impressions of events are widely disseminated.

    It doesn't necessarily make me disbelieve your account, but it definitely detracts from it. I am still glad that you put it up, because despite the flaws, taken together with everything else I read before getting to your account, the overall effect for me, and hopefully for most, is to point up the need to withhold judgment in all of these things and not live one's life believing everything that gets reported.

    As for perceptions of senior citizens and presence or absence of frailty, I personally care for senior citizens myself (and have recently experienced the first notable steps toward becoming one myself), and while I am continually amazed by how much youthful vigor they can display, it is also amazing to see how little it takes, often, to create a dramatic change that quickly takes all of that away, after a certain age.

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  • rickg

    This is strange. A fight breaks out between opposite sides and both passionately claim to be the victims. I say pro-reform wins. He left the scene on his own, anti-reform ended up in the hospital. Just goes to show how namby-pamby Americans have become – all mouth, no fists. Folks, if you really believe that your opponents are trying to RUIN YOUR COUNTRY (applies to either side here), you ought to be picking fights. With baseball bats and bad intentions. Of course, nobody really believes that, so we have screaming matches. Whooo-hoo!
    The reality of this whole healthcare deal is – its pure politics. Repubs believe “this will be Obama's Waterloo” ; Dems, being Dems, haven't figured out what they believe yet. So it's really no more visceral than any other political debate.
    More to the point, it's not really going to matter what happens at the Town Halls or the Tea Parties, or on street corners in TO. The ONLY thing that's going to make the difference is whether the Dems in Congress realize that if they don't pass healthcare reform in this session – which they can do all by themselves, without one Repub – they will lose a generation of support – just like they did over the Vietnam War. 16 years in the political wilderness
    I've always felt we have been offered two parties – one unfit to govern, the other incapable. Or as the song says “a choice between cancer and polio.” The Repubs have confirmed over and over again their view of the Government as a way of collecting money from the broad masses of Americans and funneling it to their wealthy pals. The Dems have historically been incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. They have a chance to prove that they can effectively govern, but they'll have to ante up this year or they're gone. To my mind, regardless of the validity of the hypothesis that we need healthcare reform, considering the political landscape in Congress, if they can't pass this, they don't deserve to govern and we'll have a Repub congress and Prez by 2012.
    Meanwhile, I'm expecting some pretty hot times in the old town between people who are deluded enough to think they have a say in this decision.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Your group had members who crossed over. This guy did. He was not just walking through to get to the other side. Where is the video. If it was too dark to take video, then it was too dark to take still photos. I have seen the seiu place hands on people before and that was assault and if it had been done to me, I would have hit them too. That is why I am suspicious. I have not said it was them, but that is typical of them.

  • badka2ma

    sen·ior cit·i·zen
    • n. an elderly person, esp. one who is retired and living on a pension.


    from the oxford pocket dict. it says nothing about frailty, or capabilities, the condition of ones mind or body.

    let's not try and do the liberal dance on this one. you said it, it's in print.

    if you can't get the guys height or the color of his shirt right then why in the world would anybody believe any other part of your story? you would not be considered a credible witness in a court of law. in fact you wouldn't even make it to the stand……

  • impaler

    Sorry Charley,

    Obama said, “if they hit us, we must hit back twice as hard”, and that has lead to these union thug confrontations, the Union thug crossed the street after the lady left, he went there to cause trouble, then when an elderly man confronted him, and recieved a punch, this is a direct result of PR mans determination to cause trouble, He I believe will be held liable under the laws of California, however, I will start arming myself at our protests to protect our group from PR man's cowardly antics, and I find it hard to believe “not” that no one from has turned in this loser.

  • Karoli

    You all fight it out. I've got a 20 year old on the floor writhing in
    pain as he tries to ready himself for a procedure that might be able
    to figure out why he has lost 15 lbs in 4 weeks and can't keep food in
    him without suffering in pain. Have a great day.

  • Bill

    See, that's my whole point I'm trying to make in the comment above. Emotional honesty is great, but when bearing witness to an event, adding in statements that lean heavily toward one's emotional reaction, just typing the first (or sometimes even 2nd or 3rd, when genuine complexities are involved) words that come to mind to describe a situation without adequately considering the full implications just confuses the issue.

    It's true that much of the “characterizing” you are talking about insults people's intelligence, and takes advantage of the deficits of many. All the more reason to make special effort to elevate the dialogue, especially when it is in writing like this.

    It makes one wonder if anyone on either side of the street really knew what they were talking about, if there was any point to it at all. After all, there are many cases down through history where people have been in the majority, gathered together, felt the love, politely explained and honked their support for things that proved utterly disastrous.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    In general the SEIU has promoted thug behavior since they got involved. It is just the same way that they act during one of their strikes. Protest all you want, but never try to limit my right to do the same. I will wait to see what this guy's connections are–note, I have only my sispicians at this point and am not accusing the SEIU in THIS CASE yet.

    This has to be a huge embarrassment for the Pro POTUS folks either way. Of course, the LA times tried to play the story in reverse and had to finally admit that it was the guy that bit the 65-yr-old guys finger off. On top of that it is coming on the heels of the big revelations today that show that Van Jones is a nut case and Obama is going to have to throw him under the bus. Boy would I have to be Robert Gibbs on Tuesday!

  • crossing roads is legal

    According to Rice (“The Old guy”), he went over to the large group of protesters to confront them before he went over to the side of the street that the conflict happened. According to your logic, this makes Rice the first to be aggressive, even by your standards.

    In reality, crossing roads is legal, and is not a form of aggression.

  • rickg

    Way more important…way more real…best wishes…

  • Karoli

    Bill, seriously. I have a 20 year old kid writhing on the floor in
    pain right now after barfing his guts up while preparing for the
    colonoscopy scheduled to figure out what has caused him to lose 15lbs
    in the past four weeks. These facts are not in dispute: The biter was
    hit first. The biter was hit twice. He bit the tip of Mr. Rice's pinky
    off. Motives are irrelevant. Those are the facts. I tried to give a
    sense of what led up to it and what MY IMPRESSIONS were. I did. You
    all spin it however you want.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I would have to disagree. If anyone crosses the street ranting and raving and threateningly comes in to my space I have every right to defend myself and will. That goon is lucky he picked out the old man. How can you say that no one can fight even to defend oneself! That attitude is the same one that makes it so hard to win a war. Every time there is a single innocent casualty which happens in war, the liberal media start their whining.

  • Karoli

    it didn't happen that way. sorry.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Now that is not a very logical argument because you left out the fact that Rice did not instigate violence by crossing the street to see if code pink was there. Your guy crossed the street and instigated the altercation. Can you admit that your guy should not have crossed the street just to cause conflict?

  • Karoli

    They have the affinities backwards.

  • Karoli

    the deeper root is fear. Those who oppose stirred up some key groups'
    worst fears.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Well if that story is true, they certainly secure evidence. If they did that as told, then they screwed up and a good lawyer is likely to get them excluded. There are plenty more though so it probably does not matter. They have a good photo of the guy now. All they had to do was take the disk and mail it back to her. Personal desire does not prevail over evidence. The cop was nice to her.

  • Karoli

    There were no heroes. No one was exempt. But yes, KTLA reported it
    incorrectly because they interviewed one person without getting the
    story from more of us.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    biker02 So your third party account was from an unbiased person? Why did you have to resort to calling Ravan and asshole. Now you sound like ignorant Van Jones! Come down here and talk to me that way. I will be glad to give the address.

  • RH

    They should have denied the bastard health coverage

  • Charley

    Impaler, the last thing you need to be doing is carrying a gun anywhere, let alone some place where some hothead is going to get one of you killed and the other jailed or executed. That is stupid with zeros.

    Don't over look the problem of being arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. (I'm going to assume you don't have a carry permit. If you did have a permit, you would have had the classes and know just how wrong your statement is.)

    No one likes thugs on either side of the fence. But they can be easily dealt with using non-lethal means. When the smoke clears everyone will be alive to tell their side of the story and the facts can be sorted out.

    Once someone fires a gun there are no take backs. Do everyone that may be anywhere within range of you a favor and leave your piece at home.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Ok, I see now. You are clearly not biased now that I read this. A man “shooing” a lady back in a conversation that you did not hear and give little detail of is threatening and intimidating but a man crossing the street and arguing and yelling and coming into the personal space of another person is not threatening. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

  • Karoli

    I am telling you that it didn't happen that way. He didn't rush up
    arguing and yelling.

  • Karoli

    They gave it to the networks without any credit back to me for taking
    it. Ironically, I would have offered it myself, but did ask credit
    since I take photos all the time and occasionally get paid for the
    artistic ones.

  • Charley

    Rick, you are buying into an urban myth perpetuated by police officers. Seizing a photographer's camera and/or his pictures is strictly illegal as long as the photographer is a by stander.

    Even if the photographer is the one being arrested, the police officer must have probable cause to believe that equipment was used in the crime or contains evidence of the crime (Think child porn for an example.) Even then the police cannot develop the film or look at the pictures on the memory card without the suspect's consent or a warrant.

    If you are really interested in photographer's rights, check out this PDF file:

  • theresasp

    No facts to support this … just hearsay … interesting …. LA times has nothing either … there most likely is NO STORY … LIES

  • Charley

    The minute you handed over the pictures they became part of the report and public record. That means free for all the media. Check your local papers tomorrow, you stand a good chance of seeing those pictures again.

  • TheRudeDog

    Yeah right. You libs got in their face and tried to “mix it up”

    An old man broke your buddy's ass, and your finger munching friend is running from the cops …why?

    Because he defended himself?

  • TheRudeDog

    Oh yeah? And you took the time to post that?

    Lowest of the low…

  • Karoli

    Ironically, I would have handed them off to the public anyway. I held
    back because I felt (wrongly, I suppose) that the police should have
    them and be able to use them to investigate things. I was always
    willing to put them out for free. I simply wanted credit back.

  • Karoli


    You live up to your reputation. Your tone and choice of words speaks
    for itself.

  • Karoli

    It's a distraction from the retching and groaning. Excuse me for
    commenting on my own blog. If you continue with the tone you've taken
    right now, you'll be commenting into dead air.

  • dejava

    what a sorry sad state the usa is in… tax cuts allow lower wages… poor access to health care scares the lower rungs and the working class must be prevented from spending money on imported goods. Repubs play the same games and are at least as oppressive.. their choice is no choice.

    Bush's reign started w/ arthur anderson/enron and ended w/him doing to the global economy what he did to all his other “endeavors”. How much do you think he and his lost in the melting?

    and here his psycho lot are out to eat obamma…who is an alien trying to steal their vital juices. We should all be a lot more discriminating but then that would make us worse than hitler communists… sickkk, sad

  • Charley

    Badka2ma, you do know the difference between assault and resisting arrest with force, right?

  • Charley

    Pushingyourluck, How do you plan to pay for all you propose?

    While your figuring that out, let me point out that the Samaritan was a private citizen doing a good deed with his own resources. The United States government was never meant to be in the charity business.

    Since we disagree, does that make me a bully?

  • Charley

    That is not what he said on Fox News. He stated the hospital would not attempt to reattach the finger because of the bacteria problem with a human bite.

  • Name

    You should stop trying to reason with these crazy people, if they dont believe you, then why do they bother coming here and post?? Thanks for giving us your side of the story. It seems very truthful.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Thanks Charlie. I do understand your point however my point is that a reasonable person would think that there was probable cause to think that the photos contained evidence of the crime and the identity of the participants. A reasonable person interested in justice would just ride to the station and have the disc copied or whatever to preserve both the evidence if any and also the photos for the person taking the photos. Maybe I am wrong, but I just think citizens should help in any way they can to help out. Heck, they probably could have taken anyone there to the station to take reports if they really wanted to be a pain in the butt and I know for a fact that they can be that if you catch one of them on a bad hair day.


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  • jennifer1977

    Umm… he says himself in the interview that he hit the guy, hit him a second time.. and his “fist ended up in his mouth”

    Hmmm… if you jam your finger in someones mouth.. and they bite you..arent you to blame for putting it there in the first place? lol

  • Karoli

    Are you suggesting that I didn't go out of my way? You'd be wrong. I
    volunteered my photos and my account to them. I could have been quiet.
    I could have said nothing. They would never have known I saw anything.
    I chose to speak to them because it is what GOOD citizens do.

  • Karoli

    And a hospital spokesman contradicted him, saying that the finger
    could have been reattached, but he opted not to. Is his choice related
    to the possibility of bacteria? Perhaps. They also said nerve damage
    woudl result. Perhaps he chose not to deal with that. But the fact is,
    he admits sticking his fist in the guy's mouth and hitting him. When
    you stick your hand in someone's mouth, they may indeed, bite.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    No Karoli, not suggesting that. Charlie and I were discussing the law in general as to the securing of evidence etc. I am glad you told them that you had the pics. Sorry if it sounded like that.

  • linusbern

    Video requires much higher light levels than still photography, this is simply a fact.

    Unions are made up of ordinary working people, what have you got against the working class?

  • Name

    Christ, what do you do talk them to death?

  • youwerewarned

    Nothing better in a Health Care Debate that 2 idiots now need health care. From this point forward…Let the traitorous anti-government NEOCON Republiclowns be on notice that if they tend to stick their fists (fully unprovoked of course…Thank's to FAUX NOISE and their talking but usually lying heads), twice in someones mouth over a simple comment that their hands may just be missing fingers when they withdraw them.

    Glad that hot tempered punchin' but now jus' a missin a pinkie simpleton 9 digit “Senior Citizen” understands he was wrong and had a public option like Medicare to fall back on.

    Congressmen have it, old folks have it, vet's have it, for God's sake…Even Illegal Aliens have it…The rest of us in America should have it too!

    Just pass the dang bill.

    BTW, great story and told w/ the straight scoop too according to the bitten idiot. Don't listen to the super minority “insignifican't” NEOCON crowd. It is why they are THE PARTY OF NO!

  • DiesMali

    $1000 is how much the surgeon is reimbursed for doing the surgery, yes. The actual cost to the PATIENT, for a foot amputation, including anaesthesia and hospital stay and fees, IS $40,000. Just treating a slow-healing diabetic ulcer can cost you up to $8000.

    There's something very wrong with the health care system if a patient has to go bankrupt to pay for a lifesaving operation, the surgeon who saves the patient's life only gets $1000 of that, and the malpractice insurance companies and hospital and pharmaceutical executives walk away with the other $39,000 and buy another Mercedes.

  • Tom_C

    “Let the traitorous anti-government NEOCON Republiclowns be on notice that if they tend to stick their fists (fully unprovoked of course…Thank's to FAUX NOISE and their idiot talking but usually lying heads), twice in someones mouth over a simple comment, that their hands may just be missing fingers when they withdraw them.”


  • techn0lady

    Firstly, may I express my wishes for a speedy resolution and swift recovery for your son.

    Secondly , I appreciate your account of the story. It seems unbiased to me.

    Thirdly, remember what Barney Frank said about arguing with tables? You're going to get utter incompetents on the internet and may I suggest that your entire blog would be best served if you simply deleted the comments of the ones who are impolite, use curse words and continue to endlessly argue nitpicks rather than just stating their point of view and leaving it at that. I personally don't believe that freedom of speech gives anyone the right to be aggressively rude or to be a professional idiot.

    Seriously, just delete their comments and block them. Your blog, your life and all our time will be better off for it.

    Thanks and best wishes again to your son.

  • Cornfudled

    Wait, orange shirt guy wasn't the one who got bitten? Did he hit PR guy, too, or was it only khaki shorts guy (the one who lost his finger) who hit PR guy? It would make more sense if khaki shorts guy had his finger in PR guy's mouth when orange shirt guy hit him in the jaw. The force required to sever a finger with your mouth is considerable; much easier if there's an external force exerting pressure on it.

    Bad things happen when you stick your fingers in somebody else's mouth against their will, so I'm not crying too hard about any of this, but I don't think it quite holds to say that anybody was protecting single-payer-flier woman if she was already across the street several minutes before this started.

  • juliesa

    The Ventura paper says that Rice, the guy who threw the first punch and lost his finger, was wearing a khaki shirt, not orange, as you say. They have a picture here

    Rice was on TV for an interview, and he looks like the guy in the khaki shirt in the photo at the link.

  • Cornfudled

    That picture was taken by the blogger. It's in her Flicker stream ( I think she made a mistake in editing the text, here. It's more clear from her twitter feed who got bit.

  • Karoli

    correct. wasn't orange shirt guy. Orange shirt guy also didn't throw
    the punch. He was close by, but not the puncher. This is why no
    reporter or policeman should rely on one eyewitness. I had the
    sequence right (Mr. Rice confirms) but was incorrect about who was

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Nothing, I was raised in ordinary working class. What I do have a problem with is unions overreaching and protecting bad workers and holding companies hostage for excessive wages and outrageous benefits. Then running companies into the ground and expect me as a tax payer bailing out their pensions and salaries. Then I go out and buy a car that cost a couple of grand more because of the Union. I also have a problem with the bullying I have seen by the unions at town hall meetings. My dad help lead a union in the South at a time when a union was really helpful for a while. Then soon, the union bosses came by and told him to slow down and not work so hard because it made the lazy guys look bad and more would be expected from everyone else. He was just doing his job for a company that he chose to work for and from which he received a fair wage. The union also protected horrible employees who did not deserve a job and would not last a week working for a non-union company. That is not the purpose of a Union if you review any history of the Unions at all. Unions have gone to the extremes and in my opinion are simply now extorting companies and intimidating people. This hurts their original purpose. Always taking sides politically, even though many members or the rank and file are opposed to the candidates that they support. Is that fair. How would you feel if you were one of those members and the union played the same game against your positions? How fair is it for a politician to preference jobs to go to union-only contractors. Non-union workers have families and bills and desires to get ahead just like you do. I also oppose the SEIU's alliance with Apollo. They stand for everything that I oppose. We have no single point of agreement. I work very hard and I will contribute to charaties of my choice, but I am not going to have the government take what I earn and give to those that they choose who typically have no understanding of personal responsibility. I do not owe anybody anything and not going to be a slave to Government buying votes by keeping people enslaved to entitlements.

  • Karoli

    Thanks. I usually dislike deleting comments because I do believe in
    people's right to free speech. But one can only listen to nonsense for
    so long before wanting to shut off the spigot. I'm not there yet, but
    would appreciate basic civility.

  • Name

    • n. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of “home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”


    If it is reported that there was a physical altercation between a man and a senior citizen the connotations of “senior citizen” suggest that he was frail, infirm and incapable of significant violence. Clearly this was not the case in this instance.

    Maybe you ought to learn about connotations before you try to “correct” other people's use of language.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    Well I just listened to the man that was bitten. My heart goes out to him. He has a kind heart and a clearer understanding that Obama and his cronies are up to no good. Blog Girl, I wonder if you are even from Thousand Oaks area. You stated earlier that you knew no one in your own group and that you came by yourself just to show support.
    As far as the perp is concerned. He should pay the medical bills for the man's missing finger, rather than our tax dollars. He should be personally responsible for making restitution for the loss he has caused. This is not tax payers responsibility, but his.
    Also, he will find out that if he pay with cash, the bills will be considerably lower. I know from experience. When you pay with cash, you don't have to pay all the middle men who get a cut when you use madicaid or any insurance.
    The man that Bite's The Hand That Feeds Him through his tax dollars should come clean. Blog Girl. I hope you give his name and address to the police.


    Its a good thing 4 fingers has medicare, thats accepted at every hospital in the area


    Its a good thing 4 fingers has medicare, thats accepted at every hospital in the area

  • Magic Dog

    Wingnuts, try punching me in the mouth and you'll be lucky if a finger is the only think you're missing.

  • death to faux news

    Your father is poorly informed and LYING fool. fuck him and I'm sorry he didn't lose more fingers, except that I have to pay for his medical bills. that's more than his greedy ass is willing to do for someone else less fortunate. fuck you.

  • death to faux news

    He wasn't kind, he was stoned by his own admission on the cavuto interview. he assaulted the biter by his own admission. and for what? to keep others from getting the exact medical coverage he himself has at taxpayer expense. he is a hypocrite and he deserves what he got. repubs are so thin skinned. they can dish it out but as soon as a lib fights back they freak out. they are a bunch of pussies.

  • Emer_Doc


    I am sure your friend has a large stack of medicare rejection letters.I am also sure he receives a large number from for profit insurance companies also. I also bet he has a whole host of accounts in collections because the uninsured can not or will not pay. If you think anyone who actually provides patient care does not face the same issues your friend does you are mistaken. We all do.

    We also have to deal with different rules from each and every provider. You ask “How are you going to feel when you discover that government bureaucrats will be reviewing all your decisions and evaluating your performance with their eye on the budget? Are you prepared to have your protocols and those of your paramedics revamped based on some government bureaucrat's idea of what is and what is not required treatment?”

    To be honest all my decisions are reviewed all the time by someone who may (not always) have a BA/BS in some subject and work for an insurance company. Their decisions are always based on the budget. (Along with an entire host of other organizations involved in some manor or another in health care.) So I actually do not think it would be much different from my standpoint.

    As far as pay is concerned. I think some physicians pay would decrease and some would increase. No one is talking about nationalizing all the hospitals, doctors, ambulance companies, drug companies, labs, etc… We are talking about changing who pays. If there were one set of rules and everyone was covered, providers who now have many people who do not pay would make more. Those who have a patient base of well insured patients would probably make less. Very highly paid specialties would likely make less. As for me personally, I do not know if I would make more or less. It could go either way. I do realize I may very well make less. But I also believe it is the “right” thing to do even if it means a lower salary for myself. As for your friend's income I can not predict.

    There are good models which do not place an undue burden on providers, do not nationalize the system, provide high quality care and research and cost less. (Germany, Japan and yes even Canada – I am sure this will provoke an onslaught of rationing stories – we also ration, just by who can pay.) However, they carry the stigma of “socialized medicine” which stirs up peoples emotions without an examination of the actual system. Again I will point out health care is not a free market. A free market allows a consumer to have valid choices (and also providers). Look at your friend's ambulance company. When someone calls an ambulance they do not get a choice of who responds. They do not get a price list to compare to the competition (there may not even be any competition) they do not have a choice. Your friend also does not have a choice. He can not charge up front, he can not refuse service because someone does not pay. He can not make someone sign a contract. There is no choice for the patient or your friend. And in a free market others can compete freely. Ask your friend what would happen if he attempted to enter a market served by AMR. I am sure he would agree there is would be many obstacles to compete in those markets. And for those who develop a serious illness like cancer your choices may be pay the cost or die. Again not the underpinnings of a free market. So we should just throw out the verbal baggage of “socialized medicine,” “free market” etc and start to look at what works to provide high quality care to all of our residents of our country.

    I am sure my post will generate some dissent. That is fine, perhaps even useful. I will not be responding to this topic further as I really do not have the time for it. Also to be honest I doubt many people change their minds based on comments made by myself or anyone else.

    Thank you for your input.

  • obamaiscommunism

    I love how your side of the story makes it sound like your side was so innocent, nice peaceful, like a bunch of angels and a big bad man (65 year old ) beat up some pore guy. I think what I have read everywhere else, has more credibility. Judging from liberal, progressive, and the radical lefts history when it comes to protesting. I believe the account of the pr-Obama care protester getting in the face of they old guy and the old guy pushing back then the Pr-Obama guy biting his finger off. Your story sound just as believable as Obama’s story on how we can all keep our own insurance if we like it or it wont be rationed. I’m only sorry I wasted the time reading your false account of what happened through your rose colored glasses. Nice try BTW how old was the poor little buy that bid the finger off the senior citizen?

  • Uppercutt

    I cant beleive that this is the response this blog girl gets. She tells her side of what she saw and the closeted guys with names with communism in there title have to go all commando. The guy that lost his finger admitted to hitting the guy Twice I beleive. He threw the first punch and admitted to it, he is also not talking of lawsuits…. yet. That seems like Guilt. Oh yeah he also is delusional, he has this idea that government health care is the first step to totalitarianism or some such paranoid plot. He is clearly fed into the mass hysteria of that channel he was on. For Gods Sake Please quit listening to glen beck he is the bucks fascia of TV propagandist. Please try to be as respectful as blog girl was to the opposing point of view. I would try to be but im having Chicken and FINGERLING Potatos right now.

  • Uppercutt

    Seriously….your trying hard with the lecture. It was her account and she worded it like she witnessed. Picking out certain things to downplay the fact the “Senior Citizen” was not a sympathetic character as one would assume is just muddying the waters.

    Somehow I think you know this! The old man Physically attacked someone and the other responded. There is no more debate about that he admitted it. Trying to change an eyewitness account and tweak it to shift blame is all your really trying to do.

    This was an ugly event from what I read, but trying to manipulate someone into changing there wording? Thats pretty much being a dick. Do you need clarification on that?

  • kcdad

    What? Other media aren't biased? Of course it is biased. That doesn't mean it isn't accurate.Karoli's story is the ONLY one in the media that has the ring of truth to it. Anyone notice how the media has avoided this story like the presence of WMDs in Iraq since yesterday afternoon. THERE ARE NO UPDATES TODAY ON THIS.

  • kcdad

    BRAVO! I know many doctors fed up with the “business” of health care and who just want to be healers again.

  • kcdad

    And why did the PRO-Obama guy get in his face? Isn't that the missing motivation in the other stories? Was it the Rushbeckhannity “Angry Black Man” excuse? Liberals are all animals unable to control their behavior. Or, as Karoli suggests perhaps it was a response to the old guy bullying the woman… THAT makes sense.

    (The old guy wasn't there to protest… RIGHT!)

  • Danownsyou

    If anyone were to ever strike me into traffic and then stand over me with their finger in my face you bet your ass I would bite that bitches finger off. PR was probably in fear of his life. The only thing that I would have done differently was that I would have swallowed that finger and sent it to the raw sewage plant.

    Dan was right!

    Live by the sword, lose your finger by the teeth.

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  • albertross

    You have to watch out for those 'pore' guys. Friggin' dermatologists think they can do anything!

  • anon76

    I have yet to figure out how one gets one's finger into another's mouth by simply throwing a punch. Seems to me some part of the equation is missing.

  • Karoli

    So, to be clear here…you think it's perfectly okay to punch someone
    out twice, knock them down, have your fist “in their mouth”, and blame
    the dude you just punched? Both of them were wrong, in my view.
    Evidently you feel otherwise. Have a great weekend.

  • Karoli

    I'd appreciate it if we could ratchet down the rhetoric here on both

  • Karoli

    Well, Mr. Rice said it. I didn't.

  • Karoli

    My story squares with the account of the man who was bitten. Hope that
    helps you sort things out better.

  • anon76

    Yes, I know that is Mr. Rice's account. And what I am calling into question.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    You clearly are trying to put words into my mouth that I have not spoken. You follow Obama's Move On . Org agenda very well. Don't try to start something with me hoping I will defend myself and then try to expose me as the one causing the trouble. You and your Biter Buddy who Bites the Hand that Feeds Him through our tax dollars may have done the same thing you are doing now.
    I will have a nice weekend by the way. I hope yours is healthy for you and your son as well.

  • dejava

    the army is socialist along with insurance. corporations are gangs, fascisti.

  • Karoli

    Sigh. So much for mutual respect. Be well.

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    How so? Do you think your “So, to be clear here…” was respectful?

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  • Karoli

    Did I call you a name? I was seriously restating your argument to be
    sure I had it clearly understood. Did that offend? Don't you want me
    to understand you?

  • disgustedbyyourblog

    Not sure how you came up with the argument you proposed. If someone causes damage, that someone should pay for the damages.

  • scf

    it matters because she caused the fight

  • Karoli

    She caused nothing. She has a right to be on that sidewalk without
    being chased away, just as anyone from the other side of the street
    could have come into our group. I guarantee you they would have been
    treated better.

  • justawful

    “if they hit us, we must hit back twice as hard”

    So… maybe don't go around hitting anyone in the first place? Seems like a pretty simple way to avoid… um, let me phrase this in a way that jives with your worldview: putting yourself into a position to be unjustly victimized by someone just because they cowardly impacted their face on your fist?

    “He I believe will be held liable under the laws of California,”

    You I believe have little working knowledge of the self-defense laws of California. Do yourself a favor and Google them.

    And nobody “makes” you throw the first punch. When you find yourself justifying a person's actions with the boilerplate defense of an abusive husband, you're on pretty shaky ground.

    And just to be clear about what you're implying- biting someone who has punched you: reprehensible. Shooting someone who is bothering you: totally cool. Our nation can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that lucid, rational individuals like yourself are packin' heat.

  • justawful

    We are all Kenneth Gladney!

    Who, you know, had a website up gladly accepting paypal donations to support his upcoming speaking tour accross the country, which he organized within *48* hours of getting “assaulted” by the SEIU.

    Credibility? What the Hell's that?!?

  • JuniperLimb

    Karoli is presenting the events according to her own recollection. That does not mean she is intentionally spinning anything and does not deserve the attacks and ridicule.
    Eyewitness accounts are known to be suspect. It is only by combining the stories of several witnesses from both sides that the actual event can be judged. Each person's account will be colored by their perception. This is normal. Everyone would do well to simmer down and wait for all the facts to come out.
    I tend to lean in the direction of Mr. Rice's story. That doesn't mean that it is the correct version, but I do find it telling that the biter has yet to come forward. It is impossible that he doesn't realize that the Ventura County Sheriff wants him for questioning. And yes, I'm against the current reform package being presented and that likely colors my interpretation as well.
    Don't get me wrong, the current system is far from perfect, but what has been presented is not the way to fix it. But this is not a health care debate, this is about an incident that occurred.

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  • Karoli

    Thank you for being fair. You are quite right about eyewitness
    accounts. In my meeting with the detective yesterday, it soon became
    obvious that while my recollection of the sequence of events was
    correct, I had switched Mr. Rice with the man in the yellow shirt. I
    will be writing more about this shortly. However, here is where Mr.
    Rice and my accounts converge: the man who bit was indeed hit first.
    He was hit once, then hit again (I said there was a scuffle), and the
    second hit was the one where the man bit down. Mr. Rice and I are not
    in dispute with each other on these facts. We can differ on who
    provoked who, or what took place ahead of the confrontation, but we
    are in agreement on this much.

    Also, I agree with you on this: The man who bit should step forward.
    It's wrong of him not to. To an extent, I can understand not wanting
    the publicity, but if that were all there was to it, he should've
    backed off and left the whole issue alone. It's certainly not to his
    benefit to continue to remain anonymous and missing.

  • Bill

    You're probably right about the trying too hard part. But not on the manipulating into changing wording. I still stand by the fact that she added some personal-feeling color to what she witnessed that ultimately does harm to its integrity, that it *already* has the effect of changing the eyewitness account (or at least how it is perceived), particularly if not read carefully, and it should have been more stripped down to facts, more on what she witnessed, and if she objects to “characterizing” the 65-year-old as a senior citizen, it simply should have been made more clear that he *is* a senior citizen, but not what you usually think of. Just saying statements like that appears rash and hurts the effect of your account. In a court of law, it would be properly examined and would be of value to determining the truth, but I think we have all seen over and over examples of dialogue that show that we need to be mindful when submitting statements to the “court of public opinion”, such as on these blogs, to be very clear and not off-the-cuff when we are using terms like “Senior Citizen” that affect large swaths of population, because regardless of who has the worse intent in misusing them, each person who engages in any way in the misuse becomes part of the water-muddying problem.
    I mean, this is essentially an anonymous post. Everyone therefore always has in the back of their mind that anything written here could easily be completely fabricated or inaccurate. So what else do we have to judge the likelihood of that other than the internal consistency and even-handedness of what is written?

    We need to get out of this mentality of automatically trusting whatever seems to support our worldview. It's what gets us into these messes in the first place, on *both* sides of the street!

  • Karoli

    It is by no means anonymous. This *is* my first name. There aren't
    many with my name living in this area, for sure. I'm not hard to find.
    My facebook profile and LinkedIn profile are both on the sidebar, both
    with my first/last name. CNN interviewed me with my first and last
    name, as did KNX radio and TPM. You don't have to like my style or
    what I said. But anonymous? No way.

  • Bill

    OK, I will certainly give you a lot of consideration for probably not being up to usual critical/observational form, going through that. I seriously wish your son well and feel for you; I have a 20-year-old of my own, and right now, my wife has been going through a lot of bleeding until she had to have transfusions, the biopsies show precancerous fibroids, and she will need to go to the City to have a laparoscopic hysterectomy to minimize problems that might arise from her many diabetic complications.

    We obviously both have a lot of reason to be highly interested in how healthcare funding & delivery occurs.

    So it was the tip of his pinky? Hadn't caught that part yet; it has been sounding this whole time like the man lost a whole finger.

    Besides being very regrettable and shameful on both sides, the whole incident is rather fascinating to me, because it does appear to have such a perfect symmetry of the occurrence of 2 wrongs, of 2 individuals having unhealthy aspects of motivation, but both of whom it seems could easily have gone either way, been channeled positively or negatively as they were stimulated by legitimate grievances, that escalated into this debate-marring collision between them.

    It seems that if this story could be adequately resolved and explained, the same principles would resolve darn near any conflict we all face on any scale.

  • Karoli

    Thank you, Bill. Fortunately we were able to get a diagnosis today, so
    hopefully life improves for all of us. I wish your wife the best,
    too…that's a miserable condition. I totally agree that if we could
    figure it out, we could learn a lot about conflict resolution.
    Frankly, if either one had turned and walked away, it could have been
    avoided. I'll also venture to say that the rhetorical escalation that
    has inundated print, paper, Internet, and radio has intentionally
    stirred passions and played on fears, causing the classic fight or
    flight reaction.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I have no problem if it is true that he is going on a speaking tour. I am happy that it is just another opportunity to oppose this health care disaster. I think we could use every available forum.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I did read today that the authorities are going to file felony charges on the biter but not the amputee.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Charley, your crudeness and apparent delight in someone else's loss of a digit reveals much about your character and it certainly doe not help your cause. If fact you are quite an embarrassment to them I imaging. Maybe you should take some quiet time and do some introspection.

    Fact is that the authorities are charging the biter with a felony. That should tell you something.

  • Karoli

    Link please?

  • Karoli

    A speaking tour? Joe the plumber, redux? geez.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I guess you had a bad day today since it turn out that Glenn was right and Van Jones is creeping toward the exit door and a congressional investigation. You seem fine with expressing your opinion but think by demeaning others who disagree with you will make them not express their views. You are wrong. You produce no facts in arguments, simply rant and rave. POTUS'S buddy Van Jones signed a loco 911Truther conspiracy petition, made many racists comments on video, is a proud communist, hates capitalism. Now he is in big trouble because Glenn Beck is the only one to take on the Whitehouse. Facts man. Take a valium or something.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    I had trouble finding the article from this morning but this article is similar.

  • Karoli

    the speaking tour claim was what I wanted the link to. I've seen the
    TPM story.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Sorry, somebody on another post was upset that this guy was gonna do a speaking tour. I have not got problem with that if it is true but have no reference for it of if it was just another goofball comment. I have no link and it did not interest me.

  • peace1

    violence is unacceptable. to justify violence is wrong whether you are republican or democrat. if you cant dialogue you shouldnt be part of the political process.

    one thing, im tired of hearing people say “i pay taxes” blah blah blah. last time i checked, no one is discriminated when paying for goods at the grocery store and at any store in america. we all pay taxes its about what we use our taxes for.

    unfortunately, corporations are using certain political/ religious groups as puppets for spreading lies and passing agendas for their benefit (for the few to get rich) and not the general people.

  • Name

    what exactly did you socialists think was going to happen ?? your boy king has found an excuse to take over the auto industry , the banking industry and a large part of the insurance industry …. he also wishes to control content on the radio by way of “localism” rules at the f.c.c. … he appoints “czars” to positions of power who hold some of the most radical views ever represented in the white house … on top of all that he wants to take over health care too .. when socialists try to overtake a free country , FREE people usually respond … move your socialist asses to Venezuela or Cuba …

  • Karoli

    I rest my case.

  • Karoli

    By the way…you *do* know what socialism is, yes? If so, you also
    understand that it is *not* a political system? And if it is not a
    political system it cannot be used to 'take over a country'. Now don't
    let facts and education get in your way. Your baby Bush had more czars
    than his daddy did. Get over it.

  • gfoxr

    Just because Socialism is not a political system, that does not mean that a politician (who happens to be a Socialist) can't use *political* power to attempt an implementation of his/her chosen ecomomic system.
    What Bush, his Daddy or George Washington did is a red herring in the debate about this administration's use of an unprecedented number of powerful Whitehouse officials (Czars) who are un-voted on, un-reviewed and un-accountable…except to one man and one man only….the man who appointed them.
    Can you say “Conflict of interest?”

  • markmacy

    Orange shirt? Brown shirt? Healthcare? Socialism? When a social system gets sick and bloated, and the situation gets a bit complicated for our petty human minds to grasp, it’s natural for us to start pointing fingers at each other and name-calling. One less finger in the fray now… (sorry). My job today (Saturday) is to sort further through this (healthcare) mess, boil it down to the basics, and publish it on my own blog. Then I'll try to post a further-boiled-down version here. Stumbled onto Karoli and drumsnwhistles a moment ago while googling. Love what she says and how she says it … Gotta go…

  • Puzzled

    Just curious, Name – would you prefer that GM and Chrysler had gone through a bankruptcy unassisted by the government? This is a sincere and straightforward question. I'm trying to understand how it is that these events “add up” as you have them put together. Thanks.

  • Susan

    Disgusted I live in CT not CA and have been uninsured at times. My insurance company is billed a lower amount than I am charged when I pay in cash myself.

  • tgh

    You know, this BS story would have been just a little more believable had you not tried to paint your side as totally innocent. And as far as the pictures you took? As an observer – they're worth about as much as this one-sided, poorly written article – NADA! I'm certain other pictures were taken at that time that tell a very different story than the one you're trying to force on people here. This healthcare issue is SO complicated you do neither side a service by writing this kind of garbage! Do us all a favor and quit clogging up the internet with this kind of nonsense trash!

  • Charley

    I would have preferred a legitimate bankruptcy played by the rules rather then the rigged game we got. That little exercise in making-the-rules-up-as-we-go-along put the unions at the front of the line when federal bankruptcy law had them at the back of the line.

    When anyone enters into a contract (Real estate, mortgage, car loan, bond purchase, etc.) the terms of contract are supposed to be valid through the life of that instrument. And the rules about what happens if either party bankrupt are supposed to remain the same as well.

    Think of it like this. You sell someone a $100 lawn mower to be paid in 30 days. On the fifth day that person comes back to you and tells that you will accept $24 as payment in full or they will declare bankruptcy. You tell them to go ahead knowing that federal and local bankruptcy law will require that he return the lawnmower to you.

    But when he declares bankruptcy, the White House steps in and asks that other unsecured creditors be moved to the front of the line because these are were union laborers. Low and behold, in violation of federal law, the judge sides with the White House and the debtor gets to keep the lawnmower and you have to accept $7.12 on your $100 debt.

    That one slight of hand trick by the Obama administration sent the US bond market into a crash dive. Bond holders, along with most of us, do not like it when you change the rules in the middle of the game.

    With that one action, bonds became far more risky because the old rules went right out the window. Bonds used to be fairly stable investments with a relatively low return because of the low risk. Because the risk went up, US bonds will have to offer a higher interest rate because they will be harder to sell. In the mean time, bond investors are taking their purchases off shore to countries that still obey and respect their financial laws without special favors.

    Europe and the Pacific Rim are raking in millions in capital that would have been used here in the United States. That is capital that will not be used to fund expansion and new jobs.

    That will make recovery from the current economic crises a lot more difficult and lengthy. And we have President Obama and his screwing around with the system to thank for it.

  • Charley

    I liked Joe. And I think every thing he was worried about is coming to pass.

  • Charley

    You haven't been in all that many fights, have you?

  • Charley

    It's a shame you won't be commenting back. There is so much we need you to explain.

    My friend already has AMR and Rural Metro in his area. They came in and promptly under bid him on the city and county contracts in his area. Their transport prices are less then his cost. That is called free market. (I suspect that he will get sick of the whole thing and sell out to one of those two in the next five years or so.)

    It is good to hear that you won't object to having the government (or anyone else) second guessing your medical decisions. That means you will fit into the new order just fine.

    It will never be tolerable to have my physician keeping his eye on what anyone will pay for rather then what is best for me. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you already sold your self out.

    Based on what you wrote, the only evident improvement under Obamacare is there will only be one list to check before you decide what is best for administration… err, I meant patient.

  • Charley

    Did you try to negotiate with the health care providers for a better price?

  • Charley

    Peace, you should study economics.

    By the why, anyone is free to get as rich or as poor as they like in this country. All it takes is a little work.

  • Charley

    Tax cuts allow lower wages?

    Health access scares the “lower rungs?”

    The working class can't spend their money as they fit?

    Where are you getting that from?

  • Charley

    I've been working and haven't seen anyone from the hospital interviewed. Based on the current HIPAA laws, I'm amazed that anyone from the hospital was able to even admit he was a patient at one time.

    We agree on that part about putting a finger in someone's mouth.

    On another note, are you ready to lock comments on this post yet? It looks like more then a couple whack jobs found you.

  • peace1

    haha, i do kno economics. whats funy is that a lot of republicans and rich people claim to kno economics but they are the ones who got us in this mess in the first place. spend trillions of dollars on the (holy oil) war. lets not regulate busineses, let them do what they want and take advantage of consumers. ive dealt with various businesses (as a business owner) and businesses take advantage as much as they can. just bc you have money doesnt mean you kno economics. haha

    since you know economics, tell me how you justify this. is it justified that we can use OUR taxmoney for the Iraq war that will eventually cost us a few TRILLION DOLLARS but its not ok to spend our taxmoney on healthcare. the question comes down to: who is benefiting from the health corporations getting rich? is it you? if not, then why are you supporting them and not the american people?

    ALL industrialized countries have universal healthcare. The reason America doesnt have it is because the corporations scare people into not getting a healthcare system that will make their profits go down and will also bring them competition. You do know about competition right? And in case you didnt know, most industrialized countries that have healthcare are capitalist. and even china which is communist, is the fastest growing economy and has universal healthcare too. so theres not excuse why america doesnt have universal healthcare.

    I think you should study more on sociology(and economy), and i wouldnt recommend fox news for that. lol. getting rich doesnt always take “a little work” unless you have mommy and daddy to help you or you have a network of other rich/successful people to help you out. if it were so easy to get rich, wouldnt more people be rich. haha.

    i duno, who has a better understanding of economy and the world? me or you?

  • Charley

    What “not a boxing match” said about the comparison of this event to Mike Tyson's stunt.

    While the end results of the battle may be apples and oranges you are conveniently over looking the fact that Rice swung first.

    From a legal stand point, the cause and effects of an assault are also apples and oranges. What matters is who made the first physical move. You see, unlike some stunningly ignorant school districts the law allows you to defend yourself.

    The man Rice struck could have killed Rice and it still would have been ruled self defense as long as he stopped the minute Rice stopped fighting.

    From a moral stand point, Rice made the decision to punch another man and lost a finger for it. That is a called a life lesson.

  • Charley

    Or, it could be a simple study on the history of government run programs.

  • Charley

    Agreed! It is unreasonable to assume that you can reason with some of these people.

    Nice camera. I'm a cannon shooter myself.

  • peace1

    medicare, medicaid are social programs. i dont understand why some people have problems with public programs. isnt social security a social program, isnt even PUBLIC schools and PUBLIC parks funded by the governement? with the greedy conservative mentality maybe all of those things should come with a price. lets make everyone pay for school, parks, medicare, hey lets even make everyone pay for tap water. survival of the fittest. if you dont have money, then die! that works doesnt it?

    NO! it doesnt.

    none of us live independently of each other. anyone who makes money is because thye had to get the good or service from one person in order to sell it to another person. we are all interdependent. the sooner we realize that the better this world will be.

  • fmouse

    You know, the mood in this country is heating up to the point at which it begins to resemble the period before the US Civil War in places like Kansas. At that time, in many places, if you were an abolitionist and spoke out, your life was in danger, and many people were killed for their views. During and just after the war, human life became even cheaper. Hate is contagious, and many of the most vehement haters these days also have guns.

    It's hard to say this, but it's looking as if blood will once again run freely on the soil of America before we once again have some semblance of peace and reason in this country.

  • Charley

    Nonsense. That is just common sense. He who swings first bears the burden of what ever comes from it. Mr. Rice, formerly known as Ol'-Nine-Digits went on national TV and freely admitted he not only swung first, but he swung twice.

    As for the charges on the biter, I don't think so. He may be charged, but he will get off. It is a slam dunk for any marginally competent lawyer. Even in the Left Coast Land of California, you are still allowed to to defend yourself from a physical attack.

    Perhaps you should spend some quiet time ponder reality. Like the reality of what you would do if someone assaults you? Or perhaps someone assaults someone you love in your presence.

    It is amazing how fast people will change their “moral code” when they are being beaten.

  • Charley


    The Mike Tyson reference is not applicable here. Mike was in a boxing ring participating in a sport that has rules against biting.

    In the case at hand we had one person physically assaulting another. What ever happens to the person that threw the first punch is their fault. That is morally and legally defined as self defense.

    Based on what you wrote above, it is safe to assume that you have not been around a great deal of street violence in the last couple decades. So I'll bring you up to speed.

    Variations of the Marquis of Queensbury rules went out of style for street/bar room fighting in the 1920s when “gentlemen” would step outside to settle their differences.

    Sometime in the late 1970s those unwritten rules began changing again when the losing combatant was no longer allowed to surrender, with or without honor. For reasons that are not clear the attitudes in US Society, especially among teens and young adults, changed from just winning the fight to beating the losing party into humiliation, sometimes even to death. Many blame the gang culture for this subtle change of combat etiquette but no real cause has been proven.

    Since that time anyone finding their self under assault can only assume their life may be at stake. Anyone that fights with some unwritten code of conduct in mind handicaps themselves and puts their health and life at greater risk.

    In a street/bar fight situation you take any advantage you can that will end the attack and neutralize the threat. That includes biting, hitting, scratching and attacks to the groin, eyes, nostrils and ears. Even going so far as using whatever is at hand for improvised weapons.

    The object is to stop the attack with the kind of prejudice that gives the attacker serious reluctance to resume it. Anything less can get you hurt, maimed, crippled or killed.

    And I don't get the last reference. I'm not related to anyone named Bobbett. What did I miss?

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Well Charley the law is fortunately not written around your definition of common sense. Read about it under felony mayhem. For example even of one starts a fight it does not mean the other person is at liberty to do anything he wants. He could not pull out a gun and blow his head off for instance without imminent threat of death. Also a person is allow to swing first in any case if there is reason to belief he is threatened. Stop shooting from the hip or from you limbic system and read the law. This is not the New York legislature who writes the law as they go according to need. You seem to find it difficult to even agree that this guy of yours brought on the whole situation. I would bet you still even support Van Jones' latest racist remarks revealed just today. Do you? I am open minded enough to criticize my side much of the time and not some lemming letting groups like tell me how to think. Rational like yours provides much entertainment for me. Everyone can use a good laugh reading such pathetic posts. Karoli is a reasonable and apparently intelligent person, though we could not agree more on the health care issue. She can grasp concepts and form arguments that make sense and follow basic logic. Your do not. Read her posts and compare them with yours and you will see how pathetic you appear to anyone with any intellectual abilities whatsoever.

  • Charley

    “i duno, who has a better understanding of economy and the world? me or you?”

    Clearly, based on your last post, I do.

  • dejava

    a)read macro ec then look at reagan and bush history. it's all there, nothing new. Plus that corpo tax break thing reagan was on about took money from mom and pops

    b)”poor access to….”

    c)bush boom working class (boiler room loan//phone bank workers etc) live in a managed economy too… excess money has been rechanneled to new “Enrons”

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Congratulations, you have just won the award for the most ad hominem attacks in the fewest number of words. Great ratio. You win the prize but not the argument my child.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    You have no concept of the law or application thereof. You try to talk a good game but it is just crazy bar room legal mumbo jumbo. Stop embarrassing yourself because you are starting to sound like Billy Carter.

  • Charley


    You've got a couple things wrong here. First of all you are assuming that I am pro-Obamacare. I am staunchly opposed to it. The government has proved itself inept at running every other federal or state social program. With that track record, the last thing I want is the federal government bankrupting the nation so they can screw up our medical system too. So Mr. Finger-biter is by no means my man.

    There is no need to go into detail on the rest of your presumptions on where I stand on Moveon, Van Jones other then to say wrong again.

    We are going to disagree that Mr. Finger-Biter brought it on himself. Yes, he made a bad decision to go across the street and confront the people there. I freely admit he may have had a chip on his shoulder. But he did not get physical until he was assaulted.

    Rice swung first and then he swung again. Anything that happened to him after that was his fault. Finger-Biter defended himself from an ongoing attack as evidenced by the method the finger got in his mouth and verified through public statements made by Mr. Rice. At worse for Mr. Finger-Biter, that is offsetting penalties.

    I am just as willing to criticize bad actors on my side as well. That is why Mr. Rice is getting very little sympathy from me.

    Who is for and against health care or where my political beliefs lay have no bearing on the facts and the law.

    Speaking of the law, you are right, this is not New York. However, you should brush up on your California code. Let me refresh your memory, assuming you ever knew this to begins with:

    PENAL CODE SECTION 203-206.1 Every person who unlawfully and maliciously deprives a human being of a member of his body, or disables, disfigures, or renders it useless, or cuts or disables the tongue, or puts out an eye, or slits the nose, ear, or lip, is guilty of mayhem.

    The key word in that paragraph is “unlawfully.” Even on the Left Coast self defense is not unlawful. Clearly this bite was in self defense. The connector “and” means both conditions must be present to meet the law so malice will not even make consideration.

    Now then, perhaps you can show me something in California law that supports your other statements. I think the statutes are on the web. In particular I want to see:
    - Where does it say you can take physical measures against someone that is too close to you?
    - Where is it written that pointing a finger and yelling is considered assault?
    - Short of drawing a gun (which brings in a whole different set of rules), knife or other instrument commonly defined as a lethal weapon, can you show me where the law limits allowable defensive during an assault?

    - Extra credit: Show me where in the law it says you cannot use a weapon, other then a firearm, to defend yourself from an assault.

    If you can provide the related California statutes and/or case law to support your position I will rush to concede your points. I would rather be corrected then wrong.

    I'm glad I was able to entertain you. I'll be here all week and don't forget to tip your servers.

  • Charley

    I have studied history. In fact I was alive and paying attention during those years. That is what led me to question your statements. And they are still questionable.

  • Charley

    As I said above, show me case or statutory law the contradicts my interpretation of the law and I will be happy to concede your points. In the mean time, do you think you could share you legal background with us?

    Are you in law enforcement?

    Perhaps a lawyer?

    Maybe even a paralegal?

    Or just another bar room know-it-all?

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Much better Charlie and I do respect that type of logical argument. I hate to read all these blogs that are 100 percent name calling and no facts to even respond to. It is impossible.

    Here is the general or broad view of the law but it is variable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. This applies in Pennsylvania and I will have to have some time that I do not have at the moment to pull California. The police spokesperson did say pretty much the same in one report that I read however. For the statute citation, I will try to look that up.

    Self-defense, non-lethal force:

    Criminal liability is distinguished from civil liability in that it is the state which brings charges against the defendant, as opposed to the victim or his estate. The general criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him. Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this position. The critical language under this standard is ‘reasonable belief’, ‘unlawful’, ‘about to’ and ‘necessary and proportionate’.

    In order to establish a reasonable belief, the court will use both a subjective and an objective standard. The subjective standard determines whether this defendant did in fact believe that an attack was imminent (whether reasonably or unreasonably). In arriving at this conclusion, the defendant’s state of mind is relevant. Thus, a paranoid defendant might introduce evidence of his condition to show that his belief, however unreasonable, was at least genuine.

    The reasonableness of the defendant’s actions is judged by an objective rather than a subjective standard. The reasonable person standard is one of the most difficult aspects of the law to understand. In an effort to do justice to both sides, the law requires the trier-of-fact (usually the jury) to consider whether an ordinary person in the defendant’s position would believe that force was about to be used against him. The defendant’s (and the assailant’s) physical characteristics and past history will be taken into account, but mental condition is of no concern. Thus, comparative size, weight, strength, handicap or pre-existing injury may support a reasonableness finding, but unusual sensitivity or fear will not.

    There is no simple formula for the legal application of force in self-defense under American law. The confusion is due, in part, to the complexity of the issue itself, and in part to the variety of state laws within the American legal system. The requirement that the force defended against be unlawful simply excludes the right of self defense when an ‘assailant’, such as a police officer, is legally authorized to use force. It must be noted however, that a majority of jurisdictions allow the use of force, including deadly force, in resisting an attack by a person not known to be a police officer, and the use of non-deadly force against a known police-officer attempting to make a wrongful arrest. Pennsylvania does not allow the use of force in resisting wrongful arrest, but it does allow the use of force if an arresting officer unlawfully threatens to use deadly force, or does not identify himself.

    ‘About to’ refers to the imminence requirement for the right to self-defense. It is not enough that the assailant threatens to use force in the future, or upon the happening of a certain event. Thus the statement “If you do that one more time, I’ll punch you” is insufficient to trigger the right to self-defense. The threatened use of force must be immediate.

    The force used in self defense must reasonably appear to be necessary to prevent the attack, and must be proportionate to the gravity of the attack. Thus, for example, if an assailant is about to slap the victim, responding with the use of a fire-arm would be excessive and therefore beyond the scope of the right to self-defense. The proportionality standard under Pennsylvania law is articulated as a prohibition on the use of excessive force, but the fact that death results does not automatically produce a finding of excessive force.

    Self-defense, lethal force:

    The standard for use of deadly force is, predictably, higher. The general criminal law allows for the use of deadly force anytime a faultless victim reasonably believes that unlawful force which will cause death or grievous bodily harm is about to be used on him. Again, Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this standard.

    The faultlessness requirement does not mean that the victim must be pure of heart and without sin. It does mean that the right of self-defense will not be available to one who has substantially encouraged or provoked an attack. The general rule is that words alone are not enough to be considered a provocation under this standard, but there are exceptions. For example, saying ‘I am about to shoot you’ might well constitute sufficient provocation.

  • markmacy

    When we get past the drama of the current healthcare crisis and debate, the first thing we notice is the sky-high price of health insurance, so we’re inclined to blame insurance companies. But they’re just the scapegoat. Health insurance is expensive because health CARE is expensive. Doctor visits, hospital procedures, malpractice insurance, and drugs are all expensive in America, adding up to huge bills submitted to insurance companies, which then have to pass on the expense to policy-holders. But before pointing fingers at doctors, lawyers, and drug-makers, we have to realize that these guys are FORCED to raise prices; corporations by law have to do whatever they can to maximize profits for their shareholders. The result: ever-growing health care costs. That’s just the nature of capitalism. But we can’t blame capitalism, which traces back to the idea of “survival of the fittest,” the idea that living systems (and social systems) compete in the terrestrial ecosystem, and only the most adaptable survive. So on Earth, life is very competitive and ruthless, and apparently it’s been like that for a long time. So… to get to the root of the problem we’d have to trace back to the most ancient of times for the answer…when and why did life on Earth become ruthlessly competitive… and why are we humans are the way WE are, with a noble side that wants to make sure that everyone's taken care of (like with a public health care option), and a savage side that fears that controlling forces like government will strip away our freedom to survive in a hostile environment. Until we can understand why we have that schizophrenic nature, the drama will continue. And THAT, in my view, is the real core issue in the healthcare debate… and it's what I'm devoting most of my life to figuring out…

  • Charley

    Interesting. If this interpretation is correct, then you made my point for me. The simple fact the finger was bitten off while Mr. Finger-Biter was being punched in the face makes the test for self defense based on this interpretation of the law.

    I had no idea that Pennsylvania standard for self defense is so backwards.

    This line from the first paragraph is a nightmare all by itself: “The general criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him.”

    I feel for law enforcement having to operate under that standard. It opens the door for what we called the “I hit him back before he hit me first” excuse. That takes away officer discretion and forces them into “arrest them all, let the judge sort them out” mode.

    That kind of badly written gray area law is bad for all concerned. It puts the police officers in a bad spot. It is bad for the public because bullies will soon learn all they have to say is “He was a threat, so I knocked his teeth down his throat.” It is bad for the victims because innocent people are going to be booked into jail, charged and incur legal fees for doing nothing more then defending themselves.

    Or worse yet, fearing a trip to jail and the stigma that goes with that, victim will agree not to press charges if the aggressor will not press the matter. The thug gets a free pass.

    The only thing worse then a bad law is a badly written law.

    Fortunately the law in the states I am familiar with, California included, is far clearer on the matter of self defense. It comes down to the first physical act of aggression.

    The last paragraph before lethal force is too vague to say how this will play in Pennsylvania. However the example about using a firearm after a slap is consistent with my training. Under that standard, the bite will pass the legal test. To my knowledge there is no law on the books that forbids the use of teeth in a fight.

    But this has nothing to do with California law. If anything it might have something to do with Pennsylvania law in a general sort of way. But this is a general interpretation of some compilation of laws across the country. Each state is going to be different. I would prefer to the read the statutes for myself rather then someone's take on those statutes.

  • dejava

    nuanced args are not suitable for the class represented by those “to the right of attilla” ; so ' preaching to the choir. In fact “heresy” means freethinker, same as “liberal”/”communist” etc to the “conservatives” ( meaning liberals who want everyone to follow their parochialisms and whose imaginations are restricted to power and self)…

    fundies are authoritarians. the fight is between them, the caths, prots, illuminari with a side of islam and jews and all who get drawn into the idea that systems are more real than life; utopes..

    there's history, then there's history and then there's history not counting psychology, philosophy, ethics. Then there's “The Athenean Constitution” and Plutarch and the crisis of feudalism masked as capitalism

  • peace1

    haha. great logic! nothing to support your statements. but i guess its typical of the close-minded.

    dont forget that we are all interdependent. your money is a result of the actions and hard work of other people too. and one last thing, if you didnt get it the first time, the US is the ONLY industrialized nation without universal health care. as long as i pay taxes, i have a say of where it goes. so clearly, based on that fact, I have a better understanding of the world and economy. but whats the point of arguing with a robot.

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  • disgustedbyyourblog

    The general people I know have benefited by using their own freedom to make money in a free capitalist market. Not sure why you don't see the same kind of agendas and lies that the government uses to keep people, (maybe such as yourself) in a lower class situation.

    Not sure why you are convinced 'the general people' can't make it to a better financial situation by using the freedoms we have here in America to do create wealth and pay our own way.

    Giving governments too much power and control over our businesses and decisions leads to dicatorships and bankruptcy. As Margaret Thatcher had said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually it runs out of money”. Without free enterprise to create jobs, goods and services that people buy causing money to flow in the market, the available money needed to fund government programs will decrees. Then there will be fewer dollars to pay for services (health insurance) that you want the government tax revenues to pay for. If you would support an open market, money will be generated and made available to pay for the health insurance that we all want. But to demand that the government tax us, pay for our doctors visits and medical needs, shut down the free markets is asking for bankruptcy in a short period of time. The 'rich people' that you are so upset with will not have as much money to pay in taxes. Then the tax revenue will reduce and you will be told by the government that you gave the power to to accept lesser and lesser coverage. And you will not have a revenue generating job to go to to pay for more coverage with more tax dollars. You will find yourself to be stuck. If you think that you will get a government job, remember that job will cause less tax revenue etc. You will find yourself in a financial downward spiral.

    A good example of what you are asking Americans to do would be Russia. They too thought they (The Little Guy) would have a better life when they gave their government the power to control the flow of money. They found themselves in an oppressed, poor, environment. East Germans lived in an oppressive environment when their government had too much power.
    Our founding fathers understood this tendancy and devised a wonderful constituion for Americans. Can't figure out why your side doesn't appreciate the foundations they gave us and instead want to follow the paths of oppressed people.

    If you look at social security and medicare, they are bankrupt. Our credit lines to other nations are becoming more and more limited. Buy locking us into the government as the only place to shop for health insurance, you open yourself up to the possiblility of even higher rates.

    Our economy will spiral south.

    I wish I could understand how your side thinks we can pay for government funded health insurance and not bankrupt our nation.

  • peace1

    First, Id like to say that I appreciate your response. I have had trouble understanding the other side on this issue as well. Most people Ive spoken with just come off with bogus claims without facts to support them and oftentimes simply attack Obama without stating their logical views on this medicare issue. Your comment is more refreshing.

    I definitely believe capitalism is necessary. Although China considers itself communist, it is capitalist as well. It is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Any country that is solely communist, socialist, or capitalist will not be able to support its people. What is necessary is a mixture of capitalism to support the people of the country. All industrialized countries, most of which are capitalist, except the US have universal healthcare. The US is also still one of the most wealthiest countries in the world. Its hard to believe we cant afford it while all the other industrialized countries can.

    What has led to our deficit is the war in Iraq. Its odd so many Republicans supported that war and so many are against universal healthcare. Republicans supported this war to save American lives from terrorism but wish to leave Americans to die because they cant afford to pay medical costs. Not to forget that defense accounts for most of our government spending. Maybe more should be spent on saving American lives in a more concrete way.

    My family is middle-upper class and I own my own business. We worked hard for our money but it wasnt easy. Coming from our educational background and being the right color didnt hurt either. Not everyone benefits from the “freedoms” of America. There is still much inequity in America in regards to Education, race/social class. I am making my American dream come true and I want everyone to be healthy enough to make that dream come true too. What wouldve happened if you got sick and you/your family couldnt afford healthcare. You wouldnt be here today, and I wouldnt be talking to you. Human life is valuable. Im happy to say that recently there was a bipartison agreement to insure that children would be provided with healthcare but there is still work to be done. These insurance companies have been taking advantage of their consumers with denying people based on vague “pre-existing conditions” and simply ignoring them or showing in fine print on the contract how they are denied. I dont agree that everything should be run by the government, but I believe that the government should make sure the companies arent taking advantage of their consumers and I still believe those who cant afford it should not be denied the right to live.

    Back when Clinton was in office we had a surplus of half a trillion dollars with all of these social programs in effect. He was also trying to implement health care reform but Republicans denied it. Whats interesting is when he was asked how he balanced the budget, he said that when he went to grade school 1+1=2 and he figured that rule still applied. I dont believe its easy, but I dont believe its impossible when we have money to spend on so many other trivial things. This health care reform is long past due. We can balance the budget, its a matter of what we give priority. Theres no reason these companies can make money off of providing medical insurance and the U.S. cant. Thats a more healthy recycle of money then fattening the pockets of a few while the country goes bankrupt and sick.

  • anon76

    I've been in enough to question Mr Rice's accounting of the incident. Two simple punches? Closed fisted? Seems PR guy's mouth would have had to have been open and he'd perhaps lose a tooth or two with such a blow.

    Teeth cuts on knuckles, okay, I can buy that. IMHO, either the second shot was a slap or there was some wrestling going on.

  • Charley

    Anon76, You haven't been in very many fights, have you?

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  • Uppercutt

    OMG, are you really that stupid? Glenn Beck was only after Van Jones for one reason and Fox too because they were losing revenue. Be a lemming. Frankly what facts do you produce or beck for that matter? It is all conspiracy and art critic stuff and your no better than a bircher so go and get an education on things that you think you should protest instead of lifting it from insane people on FOx. I would go in to detail but your set on the ways of the crazy. Read the stuff on jones or on the rockfeller center or on helath care reform etc. The propaganda that spews from Newscorp is enough to make anyone want to throw up.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    You are such a funny loser. Makes my day. Van Jones on words, signatures, and racist videos are what killed him. I would consider those facts. No you would not be capable of logical argument so I would not waste time to respond to such ignorance. Have a good day.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Buy the way, that would be 17 years post-graduate education so I will compare CV's with you any day of the week. I noticed in one of your latest posts you say “your no better” instead of “you're” no better. I can either assume that is simply a typo or that you simply do not know the difference. I wonder how you pronounce “ASK”. Is it “AXE”?

  • Karoli

    Your last question was completely out of line and consistent with the
    hypothesis that much of the hate and opposition comes from racist roots.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    What was racist about that dear? Are you making the assumption that a particular race cannot pronounce a simple word used frequently in the English language! That is absurd to make such an assumption. On what basis in that assumption made? I am concerned that you would imply that mis-speak is limited to a race rather that the lower intelligence that I did imply.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Also, don't even start that race baiting with me. You need to be talking to James Rucker and Van Jones about that. I have saved lives of more people of color in my career than you would ever dream and treated them just like my family. So do not dare go there.

  • anon76

    Asked already and answered. I'm going to make the assumption you've been in many fights. Tell me, are you still in possession of all your digits?

  • Uppercutt

    Thanks for proving your Rasict undertones! I will even give you a benefit of a doubt and say your just prejudice to class and standing. That still allows me to see that you are with out merit in this debate because you are in fear. No Wonder you are delusional and paranoid…..Fear will drive the scared into a panic.

    God bless you though because you will see that there is nothing to be scared of. The black man isnt going to indoctrinate your children and the libs arent going to set up fema camps next to your church. Get ahold of your self man. Quit being a scared little bitch. Quit listening to crying aholes who make up crap and start reading all the stuff good and bad.

  • ricknelsoniluvit

    Well all you did was name call indicative of your obvious ignorance of the details of the issues. Obama is failing because of substance, not race. And as far as the B word it was childish and I welcome you to come and have the courage to express such to my face. Anytime puss. Just let me know.

  • Vicki551

    Yes, we would have preferred that they file for bankruptcy and the bankruptcy was adjudicated in the courts ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Bankruptcy would not necessarily have meant that they went out of business and ceased to exist. It might have just meant that they would be re-organized. The takeover by the federal government was unconstitutional and did not do us, the citizens, nor the companies any favors not to mention the senior citizen investors who lost their life savings and support they had been counting on for their retirement years. Many of these investors are over 80 years old and there is no way they can get back into the workplace at this point in their lives. The corporate bonds that they were invested in were supposed to be the most secure, stable investments with little risk for people in their circumstances. This type of bond had NEVER been a 'risky' or speculative gamble in over 80 years and that is why they were willing to accept a lower return on their money than with a higher risk instrument. It is unconscionable that this administration would make senior citizens destitute at the end of their lives in order to pay back political support from their union contributors ILLEGALLY.

  • kcdad

    December 22… looking for updates… arrests, indictments, pleadings… apologies… NOTHING. Did this really happen?

  • Karoli

    It did really happen and it made news for that day. Now it’s either stuck at the unresolved stage or whatever resolution there was didn’t make the local papers (neither outcome would be a surprise).

  • kcdad

    December 22… looking for updates… arrests, indictments, pleadings… apologies… NOTHING. Did this really happen?

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  • Martial Wu

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  • Edwin

    thank you so much for the post..i ‘m happy to pass by

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